The problem of the US is that you might lose more voters by dumping Israel than you’d gain by supporting Palestine.
Protest voting doesn’t work when the candidate you are protesting is the least worst option. Democrats that will not vote out of principle have been conned as badly as MAGA republicans. End of story.
I think you might be on to something. Maybe the system is set up to limit the power of protest voting? I mean, it does deliver two right-of-centre parties to power, over and over again.
Where the wheels are coming off is that one of them - and some people say both - are moving further rightwards, and this is destabilising society in America.
Some people say… Dems are generally shit but they have definitely moved left over the last decade. A lot of new people have run and while it isn’t a sure thing by any stretch, people have been able to and have the chance to continue to move the party and also just straight up infiltrate it to push it left. Whereas the repubs have been in full sprint to the right.
Are you American?
I hope he is not. At least he wont rot in hell.
Pretend you’re a politician. You have two groups of people that want opposite things. One of them is reliable, donates and volunteers to help your campaign. The other is feckless and seems to always find an excuse to oppose you. Which would you try to please?
What exact issue do you disagree with from the feckless ones? What made it so hard?
You’re not doing a very good job of pretending to be a politician if that’s your answer.
so you can’t point a single instance. got it. sounds like your hypothetical politician was an asshole not worthy of the job.
Maybe the system is set up to limit the power of protest voting?
Not everything is some conspiracy to keep you down. The people who wrote the constitution just weren’t perfect and had to make political compromises, which resulted in an imperfect system.
The system itself needs to change.
Also, the game theory that gives us insight into voting systems, telling us the current system leads to a 2 party system, did not exist when the US constitution was written.
The dynamic was understood, it just wasn’t formalized in game theory terms. Alternative voting systems weren’t in use though, and probably wouldn’t even have been practical without automation.
Maybe the system is set up to limit the power of protest voting?
It absolutely is set up that way. This may or may not have been the intent of our election system, but it is the outcome.
I think there may be some conflict in the interpretation of “set up”. When you say it was “absolutely” set up that way, keep in mind that many if not most would interpret “set up” to definitively include intent.
Washington himself warned of the dangers of a 2 party system…
He warned about parties themselves.
Fair distinction.
Young people don’t get involved in the system and don’t vote, nothing special about the US on that level, so it’s not surprising their priorities aren’t the priorities of the political options.
America voting for the lesser evil since 1792.
It’s not the time to stop now. But I better see all of you on the streets with signs on November 6th.
Just say you do not care Bernie. We all know it. https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2023/10/30/bernie-sanderss-failure-to-back-gaza-ceasefire-disappoints-us-supporters
Love you Bernie, but get bent.
Unfortunately Gaza is a non issue. The situation would only be handled worse under the other candidate. Along with just about every other conceivable thing.
If you want to engage those bad faith accounts, don’t respond to the Gaza thing; that’s a trap. Instead, ask about other issues like climate issues, housing issues, food insecurity problems, etc. ask them what their third party candidate has planned for that and ask for evidence of these plans. They’ll move goalposts and attempt to get back on Gaza. Keep them coming back to those other issues that affect Americans daily. Many of those accounts are here to derail conversation. Derail them in turn and force the conversation back on track.
Or do what I do and downvote then block, then post the occasional reminder that most of those accounts are bad faith at best.
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Your pro genocide stance has been noted.
Your pro genocide stance has been noted.
And they’ve been banned because they keep saying the same stuff, being banned everywhere, then making new accounts
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You said you support the slaughter of innocent people. I’m not worried about spies, this is a public forum.
One have to admire the delicate propaganda that makes people believe in a total inversion of value lmao
Americans dems are doing the genocide, scum. You vote for them, you fucking yank. Your country is doing the genocide. Fuck you.
I know. I mean I’m not a huge fan of Harris’ Gaza stance. Honestly I’m not sure why it’s political at all to call what Israel is doing wrong. But come on, Trump will be 100 times worse. And that’s just on the Israel/Gaza thing. I’m not sure how you can look at these two and decide that Harris is wrong enough about the Gaza thing that you come to the conclusion that either a third party or Trump vote is warranted. Which makes me believe is not genuine and likely foreign agent spreading chaos and misinformation.
It’s because there is a large, internally-polled segment of the Pennsylvania electorate who are Jewish and sympathetic to Israel.
Harris can’t afford to not court them.
I have no doubt she vehemently dislikes Bibi and would wish to cut aid.
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Not only that, but AIPAC is a serious force that has demonstrated their willingness to aggressively smear every candidate who speaks out against Israel; they’ve already done this for a number of races.
Harris is basically trapped here. The best thing she can do is stay vague until after the election, when she might actually have the power to do something about it. No one on Palestine’s side has anything to gain from her losing votes over it.
Yeah this is basically my thoughts as well. Stuck between Iraq and a hard place (I had to do the Hot Shots joke here… too fitting).
But seriously, AIPAC has way too much power in American politics. And your comment about Palestine is spot on. She is walking a very thin line, but this is the nature of politics and nuance. That orange fucker has no clue about any of this.
This is the correct reason and the reason why the genocide will continue no matter who is elected.
Aipac has bought enough of american politicians that it has rendered votes worthless.
People should vote on matters other than this for with any outcome US sponsored genocide is inevitable.
It’s because there is a large, internally-polled segment of the Pennsylvania electorate who are Jewish and sympathetic to Israel.
Harris can’t afford to not court them.
I have no doubt she vehemently dislikes Bibi and would wish to cut aid.
I hope you are right. But, without evidence (if there is any, please share it), this might be wishful thinking. You might just be a more moral person than Harris. I might be being extremely unfair, but it doesn’t seem impossible for an elected official to be willing to sacrifice the lives of innocent people in a country without American voters to gain power.
I think there have been some “leaked” info to reputable journalists how both Biden and Harris pretty much despise Bibi at this point. I think if you look at it in the aggregate in how they pushed for the ceasefire (as opposed to Trump speaking with Bibi to actively undermine it), in her comments after meeting with Bibi shortly after becoming the presumed nominee following Biden stepping down — there is a clear tonal change from, say, 6-months-ago even. So yeah, I think her hands are pretty well tied.
Either way, the reality any sane person can understand is that there are much better odds we see movement from Harris than we do from Trump.
And everyone conveniently forgets that Biden did try to stop aid to Israel earlier this year. Congress blocked it. Is he trying hard enough? No probably not (I don’t claim to be an expert in middle east geopolitics, it is possible that the situation is an even more thoroughly fucked Gordian knot than it appears), but he did try. And the alternative this November thinks what he is trying is “too tough” on Bibi.
Did he try? Biden could have cited the Leahy laws any time he wanted, and proclaimed that he beleived genocide was occurring. He did not do that. So I dont beleive he was trying. I think he was pretending.
Do you understand how that works? There are exceptions specifically carved out for Israel, which require Blinken to initiate that process.
Either way, the reality any sane person can understand is that there are much better odds we see movement from Harris than we do from Trump.
I completely agree with that. I admit to being impatient for change now, because innocent people are dying now. It is sad that elections (and electorates) get in the way of such important moral principles.
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“Peace activist…?”
Weren’t you wishing death on others, like, two posts ago? And you’re laughing at others for inverted values.
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Banned account said what?
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So you want to argue in bad faith.
It’s fine to debate the idea that Gaza should not be the most important issue this election, but if your plan is to troll people and do fallacious debate then you’re not helping anyone. If you want to sell out Palestinians for personal gain, just be honest about it.
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No thanks, genocide is my biggest concern and you dont get to decide it isnt
Gunna vote twice, once for each candidate, so I double my chances of ensuring genocide. It’s what america was founded on, it’s what our forefathers would have wanted.
How very Russian of you considering that’s exactly how their last election went.
No idea what you’re talking about, I don’t own a single tracksuit and I don’t even like vodka.
Hey look, someone finally posted an article about this so the mods don’t remove it!
Here’s the link to the actual speech from Sanders: https://youtu.be/Vf5MThSniiY
I came to the Politics community 9 hours after it was posted to find discussion. Nothing.
Personally I feel an exception should be made when the news is literally just a video, why wait for a journalist to regurgitate it in written form?
Anyway
Anybody voting against Harris over Gaza is a moron. Trump may be even more pro Israel…
the antisemites have to be clearly and succinctly told this, you see
I’m not sure why people haven’t been saying this more.
We have been, everywhere we can.
I have been. It tends to get downvoted by both extremes on Lemmy.
On my instance, the UI doesn’t even give a downvote option. There’s probably a way around that, though, not that I am interested.
Getting rid of downvotes is, I think, a good thing.
Getting rid of downvotes is, I think, a good thing
says the person who gets downvoted for all the asinine shit they say
I’ve been foolishly arguing with people for months on this topic.
It’s a fundamentally uncomfortable position. The people of Gaza matter, and we can be pretty sure that Harris will continue current Biden Admin policies on it. You can’t argue for the hundred other policies at stake without knowingly allowing genocide to happen with US approval.
But here’s the thing: there are two very prominent Jewish people who don’t believe for a second that both sides are the same. One of them is Bernie Sanders. The other is Benjamin Netanyahu.
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It’s a fundamentally uncomfortable position. The people of Gaza matter
Thank you for saying this.
If I were American, I would surely vote for Harris. But I would want to have been able to do more to keep people safe from state terrorism.
First of all, at this point people in the US should vote against Trump for their safety, and that means in the current political system they have to vote for Harris. That’s the reality they have to face. The Trump party has made fascist announcements that are real and people should expect them to be made into real actions.
The problem is that the Democrats frankly have abysmal messaging and are drifting to the right further and further while using Trump as a threat to their voters. They adopt anti-immigrant policies and are distancing themselves from pro-LGBT stances, saying it’s the states decision. Both these issues as well as demands for a ceasefire poll exceptionally well, but the Harris campaign seemingly don’t want the edge. With all this they are signaling that right wing worries about immigrants and trans people are valid, although that’s absolutely not the case, and leave people to decide for example “do I want anti-immigrant light or extra harsh anti-immigrant?” when everybody says immigrants are an issue. This is unacceptably stupid and risking the vote. And that’s ignoring the elephant in the room that progressive policy like health care is exceptionally popular and using that as counter messaging would win her voters.
We’ve seen how popular the Democrats got after Harris took over and Walz got nominated. It signaled change. Now all the Democrats say that it’s gonna be the same old as usual treading on and the same bad argument vote us or you’ll get a dictatorship. I’m not denying Biden dropping out had nothing to do with the surge of popularity, but back then we also had comments like here, basically declaring any dissent from supporting a decrepit old man as the candidate as heresy. Now there are again, only Yes men here saying if you criticize Harris you’re a bot or a Trump ass eater. What is wrong with you?
Finally, I have the creeping suspicion that Democratic establishment people don’t fear a fascist Trump administration themselves personally as much as the population has to. Trump announces he will go after his enemies, Latinos and trans people (probably all queer people actually). He has anti women’s health and rights messaging all over his campaign. But that doesn’t seem to be a risk for people higher up in the party. I suspect that when you’re rich you don’t have to worry about abortion bans or HRT access. And if Trump threatens them with violence they always have money they can throw at him. It’s much more comfortable to run a risky neo liberal and right wing platform against a fascist if you can jump ship later on.
Sorry Bernie but after Hillary ousted you and then Biden was shoehorned through the primary in 2020 I voted for Gloria LA riva and now I’ve written in Claudia de la Cruz / Karina Garcia. I think voting left of center or even a vote for that hack Jill Stein actually would show the DNC they are losing votes based on their continued shift to the right and I am even considering leaving the party on my registration over their antidemocratic primaries and their decisions to fund the campaigns of right wing extremists under the misguided notion that they’re easier to beat.
Dont get me wrong, I hope Harris/Walz wins but I do not support them because their positions continue to reinforce the status quo and prop up a system that supports fascism today, right now, at home and abroad.
Otherwise im voting downballot blue except where there is a further left independent which in my area is viable for another statewide position. Thats the most practical support the " at least I’m not the other guy" strategy will get from me, and they didnt even earn it
