Summary
Former Ukrainian boxing champion Wladimir Klitschko accused podcaster Joe Rogan of “repeating Russian propaganda” after Rogan criticized U.S. military aid to Ukraine and suggested it could escalate into World War III.
Klitschko defended Ukraine’s resistance against Russia, highlighting the country’s fight for freedom and condemning Rogan’s remarks as aiding Putin’s agenda.
He invited Rogan to discuss their differences on the podcast “like free men.”
Rogan, who recently endorsed Donald Trump, called the war a “proxy war” and criticized Biden’s decision to allow Ukraine to strike Russian soil with U.S.-supplied missiles.
Klitschko v Rogan is a celebrity fight I’d actually like to see.
Yeah, saying the truth about Ukraine is the fastest way to get someone to call you a Russian bot. Even suggesting Zelenskyy should hold elections or allow opposition parties/media will piss off nafo stans.
And what do you think about Russia’s fake elections? What do you think about what happened to Navalny?
I think they’re a fascist oligarchy.
I’m gonna blow your mind here: you don’t have to support Russia to oppose the Nazi puppet government in Ukraine.
Fuck off, Russian bot
There it is. If “hold elections” sets you off, you’re backing a dictator.
Hold elections during a war? That sounds like a terrible idea.
So just hold onto power indefinitely by never ending the war. Netanyahu and Zelenskyy using the same playbook.
It’s actually a fine idea, and the only way for a truly democratic country to allow the citizens to choose themselves whether or not the war should continue.
It’s not the same. What are you talking about. Ukraine is the one being invaded. How do you get Ukrainian citizens currently being occupied ballots?
Considering the last fair Ukrainian election leaned friendly towards Russia, before the US staged a coup with the far-right, I’d be willing to bet Russia would allow neurtral election monitors in.
Sorry, when was the last fair election in Ruzzia again?
Who was it that backed the totalitarian ruler that was overthrown by the people of Ukraine?
Okay, commissar.
the only way for a truly democratic country to allow the citizens to choose themselves whether or not the war should continue.
So you’re saying that if the Ukrainian citizenry simply votes to stop the war, Russia will stop shelling their homes?
Considering the last fair election leaned pro-Russia, it’s more likely Zelenskyy’s far right regime would kill the ethnic Russian Ukrainians in retaliation, as they did for 8 years prior to the invasion.
When was the last fair election in Russia? Give me a year
“I listen to your latest podcast,” said Klitschko, whose brother Vitali Klitschko was also a world champion boxer and is now mayor of Kyiv.
“I’m sending you this video to let you know that I disagree. You talk about these American weapons being sent to Ukraine, which you believe will lead to the third world war. So let me tell you that you’re repeating Russian propaganda.”
. . . Rogan said Russia’s invasion of Ukraine was “100% wrong” but remarked of the Ukrainian president: “[Volodymyr] Zelenskyy says Putin is terrified. Fuck you, man. You fucking people are about to start world war three.”
He added: “The whole thing is a proxy war … it is fucking insane.”
Putin has long claimed US assistance for Ukraine is part of a proxy war aimed at weakening Russia.
“Putin’s Russia is in trouble, so they want to scare you and people like you,” Klitschko said in his message to Rogan. “His war was supposed to last three days. It has lasted three years thanks to the heroism and sacrifice of us Ukrainians. So you’re using the only weapon that Putin really intends to use, propaganda, and this weapon really weakens our democracies.
“Putin’s Russia wants to destroy Ukraine quietly. They want America to stay quiet. Not great, but quiet. A great America is not an America that abandons countries that defend freedom with their lives.
“In short, you see, I have quite a few points of difference. If you invite me on your podcast, we could discuss them like free men.”
Brilliant. But someone get him a fediverse account please. It’s crazy this is on Xitter.
I hate America being world police but we are supposed to ally with democracy. That’s the whole reason we didn’t defend the government of France against the people of France.
I can only imagine how many bots are in the replies of that one
Bless this guys heart, but after the Dibble affair it is clear there is no point debating insane positions in front of an insane audience.
Why is “proxy war” in scare quotes?
It’s just a war where at least one of the belligerents is supported by at least one third party. Is there anyone who doubts that the Ukraine war meets any part of that definition?
I don’t consider it a proxy war.
Ukraine isn’t a US proxy nor is Russia anyone’s proxy.
I’m not sure why people keep saying this.
A proxy war has nothing to do with either side being “a proxy.” It only means that one of the sides is being supported by some nations that’s not part of the war. That’s very obviously the case here.
In political science, a proxy war is an armed conflict where at least one of the belligerents is directed or supported by an external third-party power. In the term proxy war, a belligerent with external support is the proxy; both belligerents in a proxy war can be considered proxies if both are receiving foreign military aid from a third party country. Acting either as a nation-state government or as a conventional force, a proxy belligerent acts in behalf of a third-party state sponsor.[1]
I imagine it’s the latter part of the above from Wikipedia and long-term use in Cold War language with that part stressed.
The “in behalf” is what I believe is missing in the current example unless then Russia is also a proxy of China and North Korea.
I see. Even with that expanded, and very subjective definition, it’s still hard to see how this doesn’t qualify.
The US has obvious strategic interests in the war. Various US and EU politicians and even Zelinsky himself keeps making that point. Ukraine obviously isn’t just fighting for to support US interests but that’s the case in every proxy war. The rich, third party nation doesn’t hire mercenaries, they fund the groups who already have an interest in fighting (like defending their home).
Zelinsky would obviously like that situation to change. If the US and EU were willing to send troops it would stop being a proxy war and Zelinsky would clearly be thrilled.
If we’re using this more detailed definition of “proxy war”, which includes intent, I’d say that Russia is not a proxy for China. The difference is that isn’t providing any donations to Russia. It’s buying, selling and lending on terms that are so favorable to China that it’s better described as carpetbagging. China, and to a lesser extent India and Iran, are all raking Russia over the coals. China also trades with Ukraine. It does so at a much lower rate than with Russia (565 vs 21,800 respectively in September) but at a higher rate than the US does with Ukraine (197 in September (source: https://oec.world/).
Because proxy wars are deeply associated with the Cold War era of superpowers funding long and brutal wars. The problem is that the Ukraine war is closer to the lend lease portion of WWII, we’re putting our thumb on the scale, but it’s an economic strategy as much as a geopolitical one.
That makes it even more like a proxy war.
The cold war era proxy wars were all about saving Democracy and the “free world”. We funded one war after an other under the “domino theory.” Those are the same arguments we hear today except we’ve replaced USSR with Russia and Communist with Authoritarian. The message is the same; we don’t want to get involved directly but we’ll support this country as a bastion against world domination.
Some of the aid to Ukraine is structured as loans with expedited provisions to forgive the loans and some of it is outright grants. The US made a lot of money off of the lend lease program to the UK. I haven’t ready any analysis that suggests that the US expects to make any money off of Ukraine.
This is much more like our support of Afghanistan than our support of the UK.
That’s fair, the biggest thing though that I think makes it not one is that we promised this aid before the war. Ukraine denuclearized in exchange for protection, they also allied with us out of fear that they’d be invaded. Now they’re being invaded by a nuclear power and we can either write the checks we promised or we can lose the entirety of our international perception of dependability in a way that basically guarantees mass nuclear proliferation (if we pull out Belarus for example would be idiotic to not develop nuclear deterrence).
And I’ll admit, I’ve had an issue with Russia since they annexed crimea and I have a long standing soft spot for Ukrainians resisting Russia. But letting Russia take Ukraine for fear of war feels Chamberlainian.
And it’s fair, I know we started by selling Ukraine weapons that were too outdated for us to use ourselves. So I generally just assumed we’re making net profit off of it.
CFR has a discussion on the aid to Ukraine https://www.cfr.org/article/how-much-us-aid-going-ukraine The accounting can be a bit confusing but it’s certainly costing the US money.
That seems to be the crux of the matter. People are objecting to the implications of a proxy war rather than the actual meaning. Past treaties, and Russian aggression have nothing to do with whether or not it’s a proxy war. The intent to strategically prevent future Russian aggression, without direct involvement, is exactly what makes it a proxy war.
There also seems to be some implication that “proxy war” means that the entire purpose of the war is to satisfy the greed of some shadowy cabal. It literally just means that there’s someone who’s helping pay without being directly involved.
Because Ukraine isn’t a proxy and neither is Russia.
I get that people don’t want to associate Ukraine with the US’s horrible track record with proxy wars but the term is still just a dry political definition and the Ukraine war fits it perfectly.
It would stop being a proxy war if the US (and everyone else) cut off funding or if they actually engaged in hostilities. As long as the US (or any nation) aids Russia or Ukraine without directly participating, it’s a proxy war because that’s how proxy wars are defined.
Would Iran, North Korea, and the other countries sending arms to Russia need to cut their support for it to stop being a proxy war? Or do they get a free pass for being the underdogs?
Yes. They would. There are no “free passes” on a definition.
If Rogan accepts him on his show, I’ll actually gain a touch of respect for him.
In my eyes it is the opposite.
Klitschko is a heavy weight world champion, Rogan should be excited to have him.
If he ignores it, it will be a clear signal that he isn’t independent as he claims to be, but also gets paid to spread Russian propaganda.
I don’t see how one would reject such guest unless the goal is spreading disinformation.
He is not paid by the Russian propaganda. He is honest in his beliefs.
He is a prime example of a person that is not a bad person per se, but just too dumb to understand the complexities and chaotic nature of the world. So they invent shortcuts in their brain, the same kind right wing demagogues are pushing. It is inevitable that he becomes a right wing propagandist.
What makes you so sure he is not involved directly with Russian propaganda?
He could be compromised which is something Russia is known for.
Just because he has hundreds of millions doesn’t mean he doesn’t want billions either. This is a high stakes game like never before.
I think this is my take also. I don’t think he’s purposely malicious or has any idea of the impact he has. I think he just shows up and does his job and smiles. 😆
There is no world in which he doesn’t know his impact. He’s got a number one podcast in terms of listenership. He’s an idiot but there’s no way he’s that far gone.
Yeah, especially since Rogan is supposedly a sports fan himself.
Like my dad taught me, give bullies everything they want all the time so they don’t take stuff or hurt you.
Broprah says what he’s paid to say. Noting more, nothing less. The guy is a spineless coward- nothing less.
Broprah, that’s good 😂
Klitschko should invite Rogan into a boxing ring.
I have watched Klitschko in the ring at Madison Square Garden. He’s a modern day Heracles. Insane upper body strength.
I now see Rogan as our generations Rush Limbaugh. He fell so far, I used to enjoy listening to his podcast and now he’s just a rich, bitter, insular propaganda mouthpiece.
Crazy that he once had Bernie Sanders on his show and sat there agreeing with him on so many things. I think he also had Andrew Yang on it and nodded his head most of the way through it. I wonder what it was that made him turn to the dark side. For Musk, it was his child transitioning, but for Rogan? No idea…
A few purple haired girlies were mean to him on twitter
It wasn’t just Elon’s daughter transitioning, Claire dating Chelsea Manning is something else the man child can’t handle.
I’ve never heard his show but isn’t a common critique of him is that he almost never pushes back or questions the guest? He wasn’t just agreeing with progressives, he was agreeing with everyone and that eventually turned progressives away from him.
He did push back sometimes and he wasn’t always agreeing with people. Letting somebody speak isn’t the same as agreeing with them, but there are too many people who mistake one for the other.
Joe was one of the few people who would let people actually voice their opinions - good or bad, in their nigh entirety. His show was one of the few where people like Bernie Sanders and Andrew Yang could talk about their ideas in depth, without being constantly interrupted by some biased TV show host to try and get a sound bite or clip for the next headline.
What was missing was Joe’s critical thinking. He let them say a lot and did ask questions, but he, in my opinion, lacks the mental acuity to be able to deeply analyse what came out of his guests. It was also a reason why some people went there. They knew Joe was going to ask questions, but he was high quite often and the questions weren’t going to be as pointed or sharp as say Sam Harris.
And of course, Joe likes to talk about apes.
Money, is all about the grift
Yes, he fell so far. All the way from game show host.
He was funny in News Radio. In the before times.
He was great on Newsradio.
I’d say that he was fine in News Radio, but that was an incredibly one-note character. Seemed harmless compared to Andy Dick.
My, how the turntables.
I wonder what Russian propaganda or piles of cocaine Dave Foley is up to these days.
Man, has Dave Foley done anything really clearly, publically untoward (aside from the child support stuff, which as described in Wikipedia at least makes some sense. It’s been settled since)?
He is one of my Canadian comedy idols - to the point that if I ever saw him in public, I would actively avoid him to not risk destroying that if he is, in actuality, a piece of shit.
Not that I know of, although he does seem almost aggressively nice? Surely he’s hiding something.
Since you mentioned the possibility - I’ve never had an actual Foley encounter, but one time while at a restaurant in TO in the early 2000s we were pretty sure we spotted Dave Foley in full Kathy costume at the next table. I’m sure it wasn’t him, but sometimes we talk about that time “we saw Dave Foley’s mom” at the restaurant down the street.
I’d be sadder to encounter Kevin on a bad day
Wasn’t that character supposed to be a one off, but they liked how dumb Rogan was so they made him part of the show?
It’s wild that he’s become his character from Newsradio, minus the more fun aspects. Quite literally a shell of his former job.
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No one told him he could stop acting after the show ended
He Flanderized himself lol
He went from supporting Bernie Sanders to being a fascist bootlicker of the most anti-worker administration ever.
I wouldn’t do what Rogan has done as a response but I don’t blame people for being disillusioned with the way Bernie was treated either. All the bad stuff people say about Trump is true but he wasn’t the one that did everything in his power to prevent a progressive with grassroots support from getting the nomination to run for president. That was all the DNC. They shouldn’t be surprised to see backlash to that kind of treatment. Obviously it would have been much better for everyone if that backlash had occurred when Republicans were running a relatively sane candidate but here we are.
Yea Rogan and a good amount of Trump-supporters don’t care about his policies, he’s just a vessel for them to wreck the system so it can be built anew, without fptp-voting and with laws applied equally. Many of them expect a civil war because they’re revolutionaries but since that word is associated with the radical left they don’t actually use it, they just prep and vote for whatever nutjobs the current system enables to exist, in their minds bringing them closer to eating the rich and “fixing” the system, king or no king.
I think he’s just a pseudo intellectual contrarian and conspiracy theorist, deep down. He longs to be the one wise person in the room, and with an increasingly large audience, he has to grasp at increasingly bizarre ideas to be different.
I’m interested to see how JR responds. I heard the “Kamala was a chicken” line pre-election because she avoided him, for whatever reason. Now the tables have been turned! It’s a win-win for me because either I can sing out “Rogan is a chicken” or he actually has a discussion with Klitschko and many will have their positions challenged.
Joe Rogan can eat a dick
The episode of Fear Factor he was always meant for.
Rogan was paid off by the Trump campaign which is owned by Putin. So Rogan is now Russian asset. Cool.
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I have recently been trying to enlighten my Joe Rogan loving relative as to his (what I would consider, clear) political leanings and tendency to spew propaganda. “I’m just asking questions” is one of the most powerful propaganda tactics, since it can be used to relatively quickly normalize any topic.
As one might expect, the conversations haven’t gone well. People who listen to Joe Rogan tend to think they are well informed by virtue of listening to Joe Rogan.
I think collectively we need to start referring to him only as “the former host of Fear Factor” to really drive home exactly who it is these people are idolizing.
Tonight, Dana White-lite discusses foreign policy and top 3 choke-holds
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I watched a lot of early Rogan… And even though he was an idiot, there were so many wonderful conversations with interesting people.
Then came the likes of Jocko Willink, and slowly you saw more right wing people creep into his orbit. The early Peterson was even fun to listen to and said some good stuff… but the conversation became more political, more right wing and in my opinion less interesting… Just regurgitation of right wing talking points. Once Rogan was in talks with Spotify… there was nothing interesting left. Rogan probably got info from Spotify on demographics, targeting, subjects that do best and decided a 100 million was enough to sell gis soul. Then by constantly being in the same room with the ghouls and smelling their farts… they managed to convince him the farts smelled nice.
Nothing to add here, except that I also watched early Rogan. Totally agree that there was a significant shift.
former host of Fear Factor
That’s like the most respectable job he has had so far
He played the dumb guy on News Radio.
Still is.
He was great in News Radio.
“Least funny member of Newsradio” might be better.
Pretty amazing that he turned Andy Dick into the second-worst person to come out of that show.
And it is arguably televised torture
I’ve said it before, but he was good in Fear Factor. I don’t like Rogan, but it’s like this man was born to convince aspiring actors and models to eat maggoty cheese or sort tarantulas with their mouths.
“C’mon, man. I know you want that key!!! Get in there!!! Pick up those spiders. You’ve only got seven and you need at least nine to beat Brock. The clock is counting!!!”
