I’m sure Netanyahu also wants it to end right after he gets his sadistic goals.
As of mid 2024 the lowest estimate I found was >7000 Palestinian children dead, as compared to a highest estimate of <100 Israeli children dead. Any child dead is too many but it shows that this is not a war, it’s a slaughter.
I voted for Harris because any alternative is asinine, but we should expect that the arms shipments to Israel will continue unless we pressure our politicians.
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trump will do that because there’s no way kamala wins at this point
I think it’s fair to say we all want the death and suffering to end. I’m curious, however, about the overarching goals of those advocating for Stein and such. Some people have suggested that Russia and China stand to benefit the most from America cutting off support to Israel. Russia has certainly vied for influence in the region and generally picks up whatever America leaves behind for pennies on the Ruble.
To summarize my question: if the US cut off support to Israel with the intent of ending genocide, wouldn’t Israel simply partner with Russia or China instead?
I don’t see how this helps Gaza, but it seems like to make the situation worse.
In that case the US can just arm the resistance groups. Nothing bad has ever happened by doing that.
Right?! I think that’s probably a real risk
wouldn’t Israel simply partner with Russia or China instead?
Why would either of those countries pick up such a pointless financial burden, though? The US has spent $17.9 billion in military aid just since October 2023. I’m not sure Russia could afford to sustain that sort of spending long-term, and even if they could, what do they get from it? They get another piece of baggage to further isolate them on the international stage, while also conveniently pissing off local Muslim populations they’ve been cultivating influence with, and potentially stirring things up back home with Muslim separatist groups that have been known to pop off the odd attack or civil war from time to time.
Likewise, China can get all the natural resources Israel could offer them on better terms and at lower cost elsewhere, without any of the drawbacks that backing Israel in the absence of the US would bring them. China already has a presence in the region in relationships with Gulf states, they don’t need Israel. What, Israel is going to win them over with some cheaper citrus, or something?
People keep saying, “But what if Russia or China backed Israel instead?” without any reason for either to do so.
Appreciate the insight!
If USA stops funding genocide, somebody else will probably. What about russia and china??!?!! Amirite?
It’s a chance worth taking. Worst case scenario is that USA opposes a genocide instead of contributing. Best case is that the genocide ends.
What’s with the fictional quote?
Ignoring that, I think the best and worst case scenarios are too optimistic.
Worst case: Israel continues war with support from Russia and/or China. US loses influence and ally. Atrocities increase. Violence spreads.
Which isn’t much, congress controls the money and military aid given. Outside of joining the war and placing our military where IDF is and seeing if that will end war crimes, there’s not a lot on the table and Bibi isn’t going to take a single threat seriously, he knows the US is chained to Isreal with millions and millions of dollars in lobbying.
Can’t remember at the moment what it’s called, but there’s a law making it illegal for the US to support war crimes. If the president ceased aid to Israel on those grounds, congress would have to be unusually united to override it. Not saying it couldn’t happen, but it’d be a difficult fight to pick when Israel is being so brazenly genocidal.
Zionism is an ongoing war crime that’s around 100 years old.
There are no troops that will stop it by watching.
Finally some positive words now for acting on it, if she gets a chance.
In a presidential democracy she has all the power if she wants it.
All the one-issue voters: uhh… what now?
As someone who is frequently called a single issue voter over a number of different issues:
Ummm what? Her statement was insultingly empty (the entire article is air) and the title contradicts what she’s been saying for 6 months. I’m not suddenly about to put a Harris billboard on my lawn
I’m not suddenly about to put a Harris billboard on my lawn
Do they have billboards saying “reluctantly voting Harris out of necessity”?
Do they have billboards saying “reluctantly voting Harris out of necessity”?
They should. The overwhelming majority of Biden voters voted against Trump more than for Biden and I’d bet the farm that, while probably to a significantly lesser degree, Harris is going to win in the same way.
The Dem leadership hasn’t updated the pillars of their electoral and policymaking strategy since 1992 and it really shows.
Even when Harris or Walz say something truly based that gets the Left hopeful for real change in the right direction (which has happened a few times), some apparatchik always takes pains to point out that it’s “not part of the platform” 😮💨
Press releases walking back good things she said was kind of the hallmark of her primary campaign in 2020 too.
Two days before the election with no substance?
With no time for AIPAC to completely rat fuck the election and get Trump elected. Give her some time to help prevent the destruction of democracy and if she doesn’t move on the issue then she’ll reap what she sows.
This was my thought as well. I get the feeling she’s been fairly quiet on the subject until now due to the power AIPAC has in our politics. If she spoke out this whole time, I’m sure they would have thrown all their financial and political power against her.
I hope we’re right.
Me too. Although even once Harris takes office, AIPAC would still have a lot of power and influence. But I’m choosing to remain optimistically hopeful here.
All we need to do is freaking STOP standing in the way of the UN. How many times has the US vetoed the UN in attempts to assuage the horrors being visited on these Gazan people.
Yep, hopefully Harris will be able to direct the US reps at the UN to stop doing that much.
Unfortunately it seems there’s a law that requires the US to defund where the UN recognizes Palestine as an independent state (see https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/national-security/unesco-votes-to-admit-palestine-over-us-objections/2011/10/31/gIQAMleYZM_story.html / https://archive.is/67xzK ) but I don’t think that applies to the scenario you just discussed.
(I also don’t get how that law works with the US supporting a two state solution - how can the US support a two state solution, one of which being Palestine - and defund those who recognize two states too?)
You’re not dont worry. But heres hoping she somehow wins either way. Otherwise we’re fucked.
and if she doesn’t move on the issue then she’ll reap what she sows.
But the next election will be the most important election ever and Republicans will be ready to commit N+1 genocides if elected.
Even given that, “end the war as soon as possible” is an open ended statement. The war would end if everyone in Gaza was dead, and that could happen pretty quick if all the gloves came off.
Still, saying something is nice.
Making peace by making a desert
yawn thats magical thinking. If that was the case she’d have committed to enforcing America’s laws on not arming genocidal forces if she was serious about. All she did was trot out some tokens and say the same thing she’s said the entire campaign.
Easy, they refuse to believe her.
After all, if she didn’t sow discord by pointlessly undermining the president while an essentially powerless Vice President, she must love genociding brown people even more than Trump does somehow.
they refuse to believe her.
I mean like, I would believe her if she rolled out a plan for how the US is going to stop funding Israel? Or a plan for holding the Israeli military accountable? Or maybe I would believe her if she didn’t hold a press conference last week gaslighting us that Israel has to right to defend itself?
I agree. I’m just hoping they’ve made the calculation that remaining ambiguous on Gaza is a better electoral strategy, and once in office she doesn’t intend to spit in the faces of her base the way Biden has.
It’s her or Trump, and there’s zero chance Trump will make things better, so anyone who cares about Gaza and has a realistic outlook on the situation should support Harris.
Yeah I really wish she had been saying this before yesterday.
They still won’t vote. They don’t want to get off the couch. Gaza was just the lowest hanging fruit to pick and stay at home scrolling Facebook.
Nothing? This is nothing new from her. Its no commitment…its vaguely worded trash.
How does Trump’s “You’ve got to finish the problem” sound? Because to me that’s not vague at all.
Sounds like a problem of you vote for him. Im certainly not 😂 nor is my state.
It’s hilarious how libs think this is any different from what genocide joe has been saying for the past year.
genocide joe
Oh shit, breaking out the hits! Can we throw a “Brandon” in there and get real sentimental about it?
Looking for some nostalgia?
Yeah, Trump would send flowers, right?
Obama promised he’d close Guantanamo…
This seems about the same
Maybe start saying it outside of Muslim heavy areas and more than two days out and it won’t look so much like pandering
For fuck sake… HE TRIED
Obama was prevented from closing Gitmo by congress. IIRC, a big part of the problem was how to handle the criminal cases; all of the prisoners (“detainees”) in Gitmo have been tortured, the chain of evidence has multiple breaks in it, and it’s highly debatable that they can be tried in any kind of court. Yet intelligence agencies remain convinced that the remaining prisoners are guilty of terrorism. Congress didn’t want to move any of them to the US, because they didn’t want purported terrorists being held on US soil because ???
The president isn’t supposed to be able to act unilaterally, but we’ve allowed that Overton window to shift towards heavily authoritarian.
That might all be true but it only really illustrates my point - this too isn’t deliverable. But lying can buy some votes
It’s not lying under any conventional definition of lying though. Saying something is a lie usually indicates deceptive intent, along with a knowledge–or a reasonable belief–that something you’re saying isn’t accurate. If I believe that the earth is flat, and I say so, am I lying? Or am I just wrong?
Biden said that he would cancel student loans; he’s done everything in his legal authority, and a few things that weren’t, to try an cancel them out. Do you think that the fact that SCOTUS prevented him from doing so makes it a lie? Or was he unable to follow through due to factors that he couldn’t directly control?
Who can blame the president for ruling over a hidden torture camp full of innocent people? It’s out of their hands. That’s just how USA works. \s
It’s out of their hands.
Uh, yeah, it literally was. Unless you’re saying that you want the president to be able to do whatever they want, even when a majority of congress and courts say no.
He was prevented by language in bills he signed, and that was only after the Republicans took control in 2010. The failure to close Gitmo was just the same dithering and cautiousness that doomed or degraded many of his other optimistic goals. The whole reason Gitmo is bad is because it can be governed by unilateral executive decisions. It’s one of those situations where he had real power to decide how things worked, but wanted everything to process through a slow bureaucracy rather than taking a more active role.
Apparently no one in the comments has been paying attention. She’s been saying these same lines about Gaza since the convention speech.
There’s been a lot of FUD about it and .ml has been running wild denying anything even remotely pro peace from her.
At any rate literally all we need at this point is a president that tells Netanyahu he either accepts a negotiated return of remaining hostages and withdraws or he loses our weapons support.
But Biden is also doing his best to pump up their ammo supply so the next president actually doesn’t have the influence Biden could have had. It’s 2024 and I’m ashamed we didn’t learn from supporting South Africa and Iran into the flames. They’ve been shamelessly giving Israel our best military technology with no regard to their political situation. College students called this as the most likely path 2 decades ago, and here we are appearing to be caught by surprise.
It’s 2024 and I’m ashamed we didn’t learn from supporting South Africa and Iran into the flames.
We did learn. Just all the wrong lessons. Iran taught us that you can ride a wave of hate for 50 years. South Africa taught us that you crack down on the BDS movement day one and keep the media on lock for your Apartheid friends.
I hate that you’re right. I want to live in a country that’s actually moral.
Then you need to find a different planet.
What did South Africa do to BTS?
Boycott Divest Sanction
Fun fact, there’s a 2008 law that specifically forces the president to give Israel all the best military hardware.
It was passed by W on his way out the door, and due to the Democratic party being compromised as hell, there’s never been enough votes to get rid of it, and any time the president might want to hold things back, they get sued under that law.
PDF warning but anyone wanting to peep the law - it’s here.
https://www.congress.gov/112/statute/STATUTE-126/STATUTE-126-Pg1146.pdf
There’s actually very explicit language that Congress wrote into the law basically ensuring the president, or the executive at large, has to support Israel militarily.
So there isn’t really an easy way for a president to unilaterally untangle us from our military alliance with Israel even if they want to. It will take a literal act of Congress to change the course of the State Dept when it comes to Israel as a lot of what is wrong is prescribed by law as necessary.
Fun fact, there’s a 2008
What law is that? I keep hearing about it but I can’t find that law.
I did find several that prohibit the US from providing aid to countries that commit human rights violations but nothing that requires the US to give anyone any military hardware.
PDF warning but anyone wanting to peep the law - it’s here.
https://www.congress.gov/112/statute/STATUTE-126/STATUTE-126-Pg1146.pdf
There’s actually very explicit language that Congress wrote into the law basically ensuring the president, or the executive at large, has to support Israel militarily.
So there isn’t really an easy way for a president to unilaterally untangle us from our military alliance with Israel even if they want to. It will take a literal act of Congress to change the course of the State Dept when it comes to Israel as a lot of what is wrong is prescribed by law as necessary.
I just read that law and it’s far from clear that it requires any aid to Israel at all.
Section 1 just defines the title.
Section 2 provides a statement of findings.
Section 3 covers US policy towards Israel. This is the closest I could find to something requiring assistance. Policy statements don’t bind the president. At best they serve as guidelines for future legislation.
Section 4 talks about actively defending Israel but brackets the whole thing in “should”. That has a specific legal definition that includes, “but it’s not required.”
Section 5 simply extends some deadlines that were going to expire.
Section 6 mandates some reports.
Section 7 defines terms.The language in the Leahy Act is considerably stronger and more explicit. “No assistance shall be furnished under this chapter…”
Biden and Obama both could have used the leahy law on day one. We have evidence going that far back that Israel systematically commits war crimes, including occupying Palestine in an illegal manner. To be clear there is a way they could have done it legally. But things including extending their own, civilian, legal system into the occupied areas preclude it being legal.
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Yup I was born yesterday, and I’m wholly incapable of reading.
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3rd party voters: “I’m not voting for Harris until she condemns the Gaza war!”
Harris: *says she condemns the Gaza war*
3rd party voters: *desperate scrambling sounds to find something else to be a single issue contrarian*
I’m really hoping I’m wrong about that, but I’m seeing it on this thread.
They do not want to condemn the war.
The want to end the genocide.
there goes the goalposts
Debunking the strawman is not moving the goalpost.
You do not get to set the demands for other voters. And then pretend they have been met when they are clearly not.
Was she supposed to single-handedly end the war in Gaza as VP to earn your vote, or does she specifically need to declare war on Israel to satisfy you? You gotta know that isn’t a winning campaign promise.
Aren’t most polls against the genocide, so it would’ve helped? Even the goalposts you’re providing don’t acknowledge it as a genocide.
Why should they give a fuck about your “demands” when you change them immediately once met?
Kamala already promised not to impose a weapons embargo on Israel. She still does not call it a genocide. No demands have been met.
What does she mean by everything in her power? Nuking Gaza so the “war” ends? Send in the American military to fight in Gaza?
Liberals will see no problem choosing polite, handwringing genocide over rowdy, bombastic genocide. They fall so easily for style points and optics completely devoid of substance.
20 years from now, when the only choices are between a dem who wants 20 genocide and a republican who wants 21, liberals will still be frothing at the mouths, blaming anti-genocide leftists for the country’s devoluton into fascism. This is the logical conclusion of liberal “pragmatic utilitarianism”
In biology, one learns about a certain species of caterpillar that can only cross the threshold of metamorphosis by seeing its future butterfly. Proletarian subjectivity does not evolve by incremental steps but requires nonlinear leaps, especially by way of moral self-recognition through solidarity with the struggle of a distant people. Even when this contradicts short-term self-interest, as in the famous cases of Lancashire cotton workers’ enthusiasm for Lincoln and later for Gandhi, such efforts not only anticipate a world beyond capitalism, they concretely advance the working class’s march toward it.
Socialism, in other words, requires nonutilitarian actors, whose ultimate motivations and values arise from structures of feeling that others would deem spiritual. Marx rightly scourged romantic humanism in the abstract, but his personal pantheon — Prometheus and Spartacus, Homer, Cervantes, and Shakespeare — affirmed a heroic vision of human possibility. But can that possibility be realized in today’s world, a world where the “old working class” has been demoted in agency?
-Mike Davis
The demands haven’t changed. They’ve always been, and this is really quite simple; stop sending weapons to Israel while it’s engaging in genocide. The goalposts have not shifted.
No, the goal post has always been that she’ll enforce America’s laws regarding weapon shipments until israel behaves. This is not that. This ‘ill continue the Biden policy of committing a genocide and periodically send sternly worded letters that do nothing.’.followed by ‘israel has a right to defend itself’ platitudes.
Harris needs to commit. And this is not that. No goal posts have been moved. Shes trotted out some tokens and said the same thing shes said every time.
Empty rhetoric about “war” has never been a worthwhile “goalpost”. We’ve had more than a year of that already from genocide joe.
It’s always been about ending the genocide and reversing zionism more generally.
Third-party voters as a whole don’t matter nearly as much as the handful of Muslims in Michigan that this message is directed towards. Also, this message is not significantly different than what she’s been saying since the DNC. Her big misstep wasn’t her messaging on Gaza; it was ignoring the Uncommitted leaders entirely.
Yep, the Democrats didn’t even allow a Palestinian to speak at the DNC, but they had how many Republican politicians come on stage?
The Democrats have ignored the Muslim/Arab community almost entirely this election cycle, and are now freaking out because their Status-Quo policy decisions might have cost them the election.
And when you point this out on Lemmy, you’re screamed at for being a Trump supporter and wanting Gaza leveled. No, we just wanted our party leadership to reflect the wants of the majority of their constituents for once.
Exactly. The progressive base is somehow never big enough to win the Democrats the election, but if they complain at all about the party or the candidate, they immediately become large enough to cost the Democrats the election.
[sigh]…that being said, if you haven’t already, please go vote for Kamala today, especially if you live in a swing state.
I mean for context something like 70 million early voters already cast their ballot, so this quite literally cannot change their vote and that number is roughly half of the entire votes cast the entire last election. So in all likelihood, roughly half the people you’re mad at can’t react at all because of how long she waited.
Have you been to a protest or talked to pro-Palestinian voices. The demand has always been to stop weapons shipments to Israel, even before October 7th. This isn’t moving the goal posts, the goal posts have been there for decades, it’s just both parties have and continue to ignore them.
Strawmen are the only kind of people they have rebuttals to, not any actual thinking humans.
Look who comes crawling back after banishing Palestinians at the DNC.
This is the power of not voting for these politicians. They will only listen when they have to earn your vote.
And she only starts pandering after Trump lets Arabs on stage. Funny how that works.
In any case she is VP right now. Trump can lie about anything he wants. He is not in power. Kamala can not.
Seems a little too little too late for it to move the needle much, especially given how much early voting has happened. Harris’s position on Israel has been so bizarre, pretty sure Israel has even been actively working against Democrats this whole time anyways.
IIRC she said she wouldn’t remain silent, and then didn’t really say anything committal or concrete.
Way to late and it’s ridiculous she waited till desperation to take a good stance.
Peace has always been her call. We have yet to see how she would work for it because she isn’t in the hot seat yet. We have a choice between someone calling for peace, but not really pro Palestinian, and someone calling for ultra death squads.
Grow up.
With early voting and the roar of everything this is too late to make a huge wave difference I think.
What’s up with the grow up comment. I’m just talking about the strategy being ineffective. It’s completely random.
Because your comment reads like the standard .ml stuff trying to tie her to Netanyahu no matter what she says.
There is somehow always a moving Boogeyman in here.
And yet it’s everyone else that has to grow up.
I was told to grow up the other day for simply pointing out why Muslim/Arab voters may be struggling internally with voting for Harris. Just, y’know, applying empathy and putting myself into someone’s shoes who has way more involved in that than I do.
When I pointed out that this is why Democrats lose voters (they’re condescending and dismissive to their own party because their issues/concerns aren’t “convenient” right now) I’m screamed at for supporting Trump and how much worse it would be.
100,000 voters cast protest votes during the primaries in just Michigan alone over the Palestinian genocide, it’s clearly an important issue to your constituents and they deserve to be treated with respect. Not condescension and insults, as if they can’t possibly comprehend their choices here.
If Trump wins, don’t look to the liberals you hate to swing Trump to the left on this one. Eventually, under Christian Nationalism & Fascism, there won’t be any Palestinians or their supporters left, so I guess it’s a self-resolving issue.
It’s basically the same pattern Biden followed. Even when he did fits and starts of good things, it was way too late and only felt like he was doing it for political reasons, not because he had a change of heart.
Biden very clearly was saying things to try and keep a lid on domestic unrest. He literally parroted, (and still does) whatever Netanyahu says. Then he always blames Hamas for Netanyahu tossing in a known deal breaker at the last minute, (occupation of Gaza), even though Biden said he doesn’t want that either.
Biden’s entire conduct over Israel has been in bad faith.
Harris could not possibly have the same line as Biden so far because she doesn’t have control over weapons shipments or negotiations. All she can do is call for peace, and yeah those calls get tainted when your boss is saying the exact same stuff in bad faith. But if we aren’t smart enough to realize she cannot possibly be operating in bad faith at his level until January 20th, then we deserve everything we get.
Step 1: FOLLOW US LAW AND STOP GIVING THEM WEAPONS
Let’s see if she ever gets this far. I am not holding my breath
Bibi hates her, so that’s a good start.
Considering that him and Trump talk all the time, I would say he isn’t excited for Harris. He knows when the war is over, he is fucked. Remember, he tried to remove their supreme court before the war.
I would say he isn’t excited for Harris.
Yes… That’s what “Bibi hates her” means.
I bet ypu are fun at parties.
Ypu!? I love that guy! They are a party animal…
We’re not in a vacuum. Two things can be true. She can honestly be pro Israel but also hope the turds that are the Likud Party lose power, work to end the genocide, and find a two-state solution - that is, if Hamas and Bibi will allow it, which they won’t.
This binary all-or-nothing, zero sum bs is just toxic and ignorant.
She can honestly be pro Israel but also hope the turds that are the Likud Party lose
I’m not invested in the Likud Party losing if the war continues to expand and drag on.
The issue isn’t with her “pro-Israel” policy, it’s with her “pro-Genocide” policy. That’s what’s driving the protests.
And that’s the rub. Is she really ‘pro genocide’? That is the question
“Hey, i have murdered some 40.000 people, most women and children. Can you send me more weapons?”
“Well sure, here ya go. Need any more troops deployed with it, so no one in the region can try to stop you?”
More clear of an endorsement isn’t possible aside from going there personally to murder the women and children herself.
But the question remains, will things be better, worse, or the same under Trump?
Like it or not, at this stage of the game there are effectively two candidates. To paraphrase South Park, you can vote for the douche bag or the turd sandwich. Neither is a very good option but one is certainly worse than the other if you’re paying any attention at all. Abstaining from voting for Harris in a swing state is tantamount to a half vote for Trump.
So sure, continue letting everyone know what the current administration is doing wrong. I’m all for valid criticism of our government. Post facts, link sources, and post ways that people can voice their displeasure to their elected officials.
Trying to sway votes away from Harris is not the answer. Because again, like it or not, the shitty choice that we’ve been handed in this scenario is bad or worse. Please stop advocating for worse.
Left-wing accelerationists will always vote for the worse result, because they’re convinced the only route to the world they want requires burning society down. That Queer and PoC communities will be exterminated in the process is of no concern to them, because they don’t actually care about real human outcomes, they just want their fantasy Communist society to emerge from the ashes of fascism’s cremated victims.
They literally think that letting Fascism win and destroy society will open the door to a communist revolution. At best they are stupid, at worst they are malicious and explicitly want Fascism. Regardless, they are enemies of progress, friends to Fascists and Christian Nationalists, and have no problem throwing marginalized people to the wolves in a bid to accomplish nothing.
I don’t even know how to respond to this. It’s filled with so much hyperbole that there’s nothing factual to refute or discuss. All I can say is that I vehemently disagree with your opinions on the matter.
it’s with her “pro-Genocide” policy
What pro-genocide policy? Name one Kamala Harris, pro-genocide policy.
Because it seems to me that she just stated that her goal is to end the genocide. Seems like a pretty counterintuitive way to be “pro-genocide”…
And if you knew anything about politics in Israel, then you would 100% be invested in the Likud Party losing.
Sending weapons to the army committing the genocide is a very clear endorsement of it. Judge politicians by their actions, not by their promises.
And not only was sending those weapons a clear endorsement of the genocide, it is illegal by US law. The whole administration and majority of congress should be under investigation and in jail.
And who is the current President of the United States?
Is it Kamala Harris? No?
So my question stands: one “pro-genocide policy”
Who is current vice-president?
Her entire campaign was based on the fact that she is the continuation of Biden. Having proper primaries after Biden dropped out was argued against, saying she is already on the ticket. Her team is largely Bidens team. Distancing her from the administration she currently serves in and saying she is the continuation of that doesn’t work.
Frankly if she was opposed to genocide the only decent thing would have been to resign from her position in the current administration. You cannot be against genocide while serving a genocidal president.
Then stop serving Trump. You can’t be against any of the things he stands for, including genocide, if you’re trying to swing this election in his favor.
Yeah it’s clear she wants a two state solution.
Like her ads I’m sure she has a more pro Israel slant in other cities.
