Summary
Israeli Finance Minister Bezalel Smotrich endorsed President-elect Donald Trump’s victory, stating it’s “time” to extend full Israeli sovereignty over the occupied West Bank.
This comes as Israeli Prime Minister Netanyahu highlighted his alignment with Trump on the “Iranian threat.”
Tensions in Gaza and Lebanon have escalated following recent Israeli airstrikes, with regional leaders gathering in Riyadh to address Israeli actions.
Israeli President Isaac Herzog is set to meet President Biden, though Biden’s influence on Israel may be limited following Trump’s win.
bUt hArRiS sUpPoRtS gEnOcIdE
The Harris campaign made the decision to not break from Biden on Israel, at the cost of a +6 points gain. That’s the fault of the campaign’s calculations to ignore those voters, take them for granted, and instead run to the right with Liz Cheney and having the most lethal Military.
I voted for Harris and told others to do the same. It’s still on the campaign. Blaming voters is just sowing division when we need unity and solidarity to fight against Fascism.
Quote
Our first matchup tested a Democrat and a Republican who “both agree with Israel’s current approach to the conflict in Gaza”. In this case, the generic candidates tied 44–44. The second matchup saw the same Republican facing a Democrat supporting “an immediate ceasefire and a halt of military aid and arms sales to Israel”. Interestingly, the Democrat led 49–43, with Independents and 2020 non-voters driving the bulk of this shift.
- Split Ticket (July 2024)
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In Pennsylvania, 34% of respondents said they would be more likely to vote for the Democratic nominee if the nominee vowed to withhold weapons to Israel, compared to 7% who said they would be less likely. The rest said it would make no difference. In Arizona, 35% said they’d be more likely, while 5% would be less likely. And in Georgia, 39% said they’d be more likely, also compared to 5% who would be less likely.
- New Poll Suggests Gaza Ceasefire and Arms Embargo Would Help Dems with Swing State Voters (Full YouGov Report) (May 2024)
Quotes
- Data For Progress Poll (May 2024)
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Majorities of Democrats (67%) and Independents (55%) believe the US should either end support for Israel’s war effort or make that support conditional on a ceasefire. Only 8% of Democrats but 42% of Republicans think the US must support Israel unconditionally.
Republicans and Independents most often point to immigration as one of Biden’s top foreign policy failures. Democrats most often select the US response to the war in Gaza.
With Harris you had someone at least you could work with, she reacts and actually suffers political damage. Trump doesn’t give a single shit what anyone wants and gets away with everything.
There’s no one issue that, independently, could have change the outcome that no other could have as well. Blaming it on just one thing is just as ignorant as blaming it just on voters.
It’s as much on the Harris campaign as the American people who didn’t fucking show up, despite all the evidence that it’s going to be so much worse with Trump.
Trying to say “It’s anyone’s fault but mine” at this stage is pointless, though… because what’s done is done. We’re fucked. Doing nothing but point fingers only damages us in the long run, because it’s that much more energy not spent on fixing it in the future.
I agree that pointing blame is not useful. Understanding the reasons for why voter output for the Democratic Party was depressed by over 10 million voters is in order to find a path forward.
It’s ultimately on the campaign to earn those votes, they failed to with their campaign strategy. People are being squeezed with high costs of living and low wages. Business as usual is not appealing to people who want real change. The data is clear that progressive policies are popular with everyone, that includes Republicans and independents on top of Democrats. The decision to take those voters for Granted without offering them enough on the policy front, and instead move to the right, was a calculated decision by the campaign that failed. Instead, the campaign could have ran boldly on progressive policies. Especially with the Walz pick. They could have hemorrhaged the Republican base by running on policies that will improve their lives too. Such as universal healthcare, affordable public housing / housing first, increasing federal minimum wage and eliminating subminimum wage, free collage, etc. Her policy of taking on Price gouging was great, we needed a lot more of that and a lot less of things like moving to the right on immigration while campaigning with Liz Cheney.
Polls on campaign messaging
How to Win a Swing Voter in Seven Days
“The View” Alternate Universe: Break From Biden in Interviews, Play the Hits in Ads
Polls on policy
How Trump and Harris Voters See America’s Role in the World
Majority of Americans support progressive policies such as higher minimum wage, free college
Democrats should run on the popular progressive ideas, but not the unpopular ones
Here Are 7 ‘Left Wing’ Ideas (Almost) All Americans Can Get Behind
Finding common ground: 109 national policy proposals with bipartisan support
Progressive Policies Are Popular Policies
Tim Walz’s Progressive Policies Popular With Republicans in Swing States
I see a lot of people preferring to blame voter demographics over recognizing how the Campaign failed to earn those votes. Now more than ever we need solidarity to protect ourselves and our communities from this rise in Fascism.
Yes she does
She does, so does Biden, just not to the extent trump will.
It’s fucked up the DNC insisted on taking support of genocide as a binary topic out of this election.
Just think, if they cared more about votes than dark money from a foreign government, trump might not be president elect right now. That was always an option you know? Giving Dem voters what they wanted, not just on this issues but multiple others.
Do you think the gamble was worth it now?
Are you willing to do anything different in four years?
These people will blame us for the next 4 years and then blame us when the next neoliberal party darling loses in 2028. Anything they can do to deflect responsibility, hold anyone accountable, and prevent disrupting the status quo in this great race to the bottom.
Biden and Harris already openly pledge unconditional material support to Israel in its genocide, organize Europe in this same direction, and go after anyone opposing them on this. Israel receives what it materially needs to do all pf this. Any further escalation in the West Bank will be done with materials, funds, and diplomatic cover provided by the Biden-Harris administration.
Biden and Harris feign empathy and try to run little games around redefining what a ceasefire is for PR purposes. But in terms of the basic reakity of supporting Israel to do whatever it wants to Palestinians, as in providing them the means they would otherwise nit have to do it, there is no sense in which they are less bad than Trump.
Over 50% of the god damn country voted for a man who has so many major, should-be career ending flaws we don’t even need to list them anymore. If he kicked a puppy it wouldn’t even make the top 10 worst things he’s done. The democrats lost to the stupidest president of all time, a man who’s entire economic policy revolves around tariffs that he fundamentally doesn’t even understand and who cannot seem to open his mouth without lying.
…and you’re here dunking on the people trying to oppose America’s blatant complicity in genocide. Well, you sure showed them.
Tbf the 50% that voted for trump aren’t here, plain and simple, so that’s why you don’t see engagement with them.
The only political engagement you’ll see here on Lemmy shifts overwhelmingly left for all parties, so you’ll see mostly squabbling between various left factions.
while youre busy opposing genocide, you got someone significantly worse elected instead. Well done.
Why do so many “moderates” insist on acting like the politically engaged people they run into online are the same people who are were so politically disengaged this year that they just didn’t vote?
Like, could you please explain the thinking that someone wouldn’t vote and then keep spending free time talking about it?
It’s not just you, and you’re not the first one I asked.
But everyone else just down votes me for asking and never respond.
Probably for the same reason so many terminally online “politically engaged” people insist that they’re clearly morally and intellectually superior to everyone else despite the fact that all they do is whine about how the “lesser evil” (in just one of thousands of elections, no less) isn’t good enough for them.
Maybe if you stopped focusing so much on the negatives, and started promoting positive change, people wouldn’t argue with you so much.
So your solution is less criticism of the party? No wonder the Dems never learn.
I think you’re confusing me for someone else
I voted D like I always do, so have most progressive on here from what I’ve seen them say.
What me, and them, have been saying is that Biden and Harris had our votes, but every indication show d they wouldn’t get enough to beat trump.
It’s fine to be upset about that, we are too. Probably more than any moderate, we’re literally losing more than you all, that’s why we care.
But what’s scary is this has all happened before. Moderates refuse to acknowledge they’re unpopular with Dem voters, and rather than reach out to progressives for help reaching non-votera…
You all just seemed obsessed with turning more Dem voters away from the party.
Maybe if you stopped focusing so much on the negatives, and started promoting positive change, people wouldn’t argue with you so much.
The change we need is better Dem candidates, how the absolute fuck will that happen if we’re not allowed to acknowledge we keep running shitty candidates?
Do you even remember how a fair and open primary is supposed to work?
How is one of those ever possible if no one is allowed to criticize the party’s favorite?
Well here’s a comment from someone I was talking to that was politically engaged yet arguing that folks might as well not vote.
I’m not going into the thinking behind it, but it’s certainly happening.
Being politically “engaged” on Lemmy doesn’t mean much in terms of ensuring voter participation. I’ve seen plenty of folks with a “democrats have to earn my vote” sentiment. That very much seemed to play out given the much lower voter participation for Democrats this year.
Did you link the wrong comment?
What you linked is just someone saying they can understand why someone who thinks both party’s won’t help, won’t be likely to vote.
someone who thinks both party’s won’t help
I don’t read it this way all - there was no conditional on party efficacy and it in fact was an assertion that their lives won’t change due to who was elected, which changed the overall statement to read like the working class shouldn’t vote.
So, the issue is you’re not understanding what people are saying…
You’re thinking they said something they didn’t and you’re getting upset about nothing.
I really didn’t.
Edit: meaning I am not American and if I was I would have voted Harris, not that Trump is not significantly worse.
For some reason they still think they can bully people into voting for their guy. This has been thoroughly disproved but still they persist.
Both can be true, that she supports genocide but that Trump will be worse.
I really hated all the moaning about people calling out that both are shitty options. The Overton window is so far to the right. Like, yeah Harris is clearly the better option but neither represent any positive moves forward.
For Palestine? Probably. In so many other options? It’s laughable that people think that the two candidates were in any way similar.
Biden, and by extension Harris, have not waved their hands and saved the country (even if they could, which they can’t, because we elected politicians not magicians), but they have done leagues more for people than anything the Trump crowd has.
Being ignorant of that is dangerous, but spreading that ignorance is borderline manslaughter for all the people who are going to be hurt because millions of people decided not to show up for this election that did for the last.
Oh both can be true, but in this case they are not.
There has always been valid reason to give arms to Israel, and there continues to be today. If you think that alone amounts to “supporting genocide” you’re about to be pretty upset when you watch the actual genocide that unfolds in the Gaza Strip and the West Bank over the next 4-8 years. Trump and Netanyahu are about to go scorched earth on Palestine like never in the history of the ~80 year war.
Bernie fuckin’ Sanders could be POTUS today and he’d still send weapons to Israel, because they are our main ally in the region who also happens to under near-constant threats and attacks from multiple angles. The absolute best we can reasonably ask for is that weapons are sent on a conditional basis, but nobody wants to talk about that reality.
There’s a lot of stupidity reflected in these elections.
I’ve said before (and will say again) that US elections are like our national-scale county fairs: idiots that your normally never see come out of the woodwork.
Harris did and does support genocide and if you tolerated that you should do some self-criticism.
And notice how all the screeching about genocide has gone silent? Proves that they never actually cared.
LeopardsAteMyFace.
Unfortunately, this time around, for the Americans pretending to actually give damn on social meda, Gaza will be a parking lot soon.
Just as Trump proclaimed.
Gaza is a parking lot already.
All Trump will do is officially move the border line. The full ethnic cleansing of North Gaza is taking place under Biden this very moment.
I think you missed the part where Netanyahu just went out and said the west bank is next.
They’ve been saying that for the last year. And bombing the west bank. Hell they bombed Bethlehem on Christmas.
People are just getting the consequences of their actions or inaction. My empathy bucket for all of this has broken and I don’t plan on fixing it anymore either.
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Israel is already controlling the West bank directly with settlements and indirectly with the Palestinians authority who arrest resistance leaders but do nothing to defend Palestinians
To those cowards that didn’t vote: This is on you, own it you sniveling weasels.
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Fuck you. Reevaluate your values and if you care so much, you go to the middle east and fight. Otherwise stop virtue signalling.
Absolutely why should death and destruction be only there. Let also the exporter get a taste of their own product.
The democrats can not fail, they can only be failed.
own the cowardice. Dems suck but every non voter has blood on their hands. Ignorance and apathy are not moral principles.
I voted, but I have no power to change the outcome of the election. Only the democrats had this power, the blame lies only with them.
Genocide lowers turnout. Saying you’re going to appoint republicans to your cabinet lowers turnout. Pledging to shut down the border and build the wall lowers turnout. Means testing all of your campaign promises lowers turnout. Running tough-on-crime campaign ads raises turnout FOR THE REPUBLICANS!
We’ve been yelling that the dems will lose if they continue to go right for the last 4 years, but the dems either chose to move to the right on every issue either knowing it would lower their performance, or ignorant because blue maga like you helped shield them from the reality unfolding infront of all of us. I don’t know which is more damning.
Genocide lowers turnout.
Which is exactly why Netanyahu made sure not to slow it down. Because low turnout=Republican win. And he knows which candidate will allow him to literally wipe Palestine off the map
Biden sent Netanyahu every weapon he was allowed to, and had the military protecting Israel.
If the Biden admin didn’t want Netanyahu to do this, they could have just not actively supported his efforts to do so.
This was obvious to everyone from the beginning.
Even blue MAGA were doing “But you still need to vote biden, even if the dems never stop facilitating genocide” since Oct 8th, because deep down, they understood the dems wouldn’t listen, even if it was going to cost them the election.
I agree the campaign was poor. I agree the party had small, terrible, and stupid ideas. I agree that chasing republicans is stupid.
I will still however yell at cowards who coddle people who think not voting is anything but moral cowardice. Just own it. Take some fucking accountability. Its fine to have issues and complaints, its suicide to encourage people to go full karen.
Blaming the people for the predictable effects of the dem’s actions deflects away from only entity that had the power to change the outcome and the only entity that will have the power to change this in 2026.
It’s not constructive to go “Damn, I sure wish genocide didn’t decrease turnout for the dems”
Just like in 2016, the dems deluded themselves into blaming the voters (specifically black people and/or the left) and bernie sanders instead of themselves, and we are watching them do it again in real time.
I would argue democrat donors preferred a trump win and preferred dem turnout be low because they had a decent campaign for a second and shut it down.
What your saying only makes sense if you operate from the idea dems want to win and not that they want to hand a victory their donors.
In 2016 actual democrat operative tried to twistpeople’s arms to vote. This election that energy did not come from the mainstream democrats. Their pitch was “we don’t need you, we want republicans instead”.
The calculus is different when you recognize both parties hate you.
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“We did it, Patrick! We saved Palestine!”
“Our strategy failed and our candidate lost. Quick! Start mocking people for caring about a genocide before they start getting ideas about blaming us for the mess we caused!”
A shitty campaign does not excuse you from sitting back and allowing fascism to take over. You share in the blame.
A shitty campaign does not excuse you from sitting back and allowing fascism to take over.
I did no such thing. I place the blame on Trump voters, Harris, and the DNC
I wonder if you ever admit fault or if it’s always someone else.
Yeah, I’m going to take zero blame for the outcome of these past three presidential elections as I held my nose and voted for the terrible slew of (D) candidates each time which resulted in two losses and one near loss. When are you going to hold the party accountable for their performance and unwillingness to support electable candidates?
That’s not what I said.
I said:
I wonder if you ever admit fault or if it’s always someone else.
Since you didn’t answer, I’m going to have to assume you don’t ever admit fault.
When are you going to hold the party accountable for their performance and unwillingness to support electable candidates?
I do. There is lots of blame to go around and you share in it by sitting back and allowing a genocidal fascist dictator to take power because of your ideological arrogance.
I did answer by saying that I’m going to take zero blame for this mess.
I also said that I did vote for Harris, so I’m confused about your “sitting back and allowing a genocidal fascist dictator to take power” comment. I’ve been preaching about the DNC’s incompetence since they allowed him to get elected in 2016 but I’m always met with opposition from people who think the DNC’s losing strategy is the correct strategy even though there’s no metric where this makes any sense.
“Dems ran a shit out-of-touch campaign, obviously this absolves all of us who were beating the ‘Don’t vote against the fascist’ drum as hard as we could.”
Believe it or not, and I understand this is quite unsettling for people with a simplistic view of the world, blame can be shared over multiple parties. Yes, really!
It sounds like you’re still running their campaign for them as you gain enjoyment by mocking those opposed to supporters and enablers of genocide regardless of which tribe they belong to. That was a conscious choice from her, and this is a conscious choice from you to continue your support. She was trying to win an election, but what’s your excuse?
Please scour through my post history and find where I’ve ever told anyone how they should vote.
She was trying to win an election, but what’s your excuse?
Trying to avoid additional genocides here at home, and being rightfully upset that me, my friends, and loved ones are now in the sights of genocide in addition to the Palestinian genocide getting worse and Ukrainian genocide being enabled by Trump and a potential invasion of Taiwan by the CCP?
I guess that’s all small stuff compared to virtue signaling over Palestine. Gotta maintain that spiritual attitude towards politics.
Please scour through my post history and find where I’ve ever told anyone how they should vote.
I don’t know if you, personally, were banging the don’t vote drum, and expressed no opinion on whether YOU were or not. You have, however, jumped in on a comment mocking those who thought that abstaining was in any way a moral choice and saw fit to equate that to ‘mocking people for caring about genocide’.
And you were trying to do that by throwing a whole other demographic under the bus. We shouldn’t be surprised this country is okay with genocide and then voted for Trump, because it reveals they were already primed for fascism and atomized enough to leave various groups behind.
For conservatives it’s women, LGBTQ people, and “the elite”, while for liberals it seems to be latino men, Muslims, and the working-class (and kinda trans people because she started getting super vague about helping them near the end of the campaign). The people who right now are like, “Well fuck you guys for voting Trump, I guess it’s every person for themselves, got to look after my own now”, well that’s how lots of people felt before the election when no one was helping them with the genocide, refused to even hear them out, so of course their turnout was depressed.
And they were a tiny minority, btw, if they all voted for Harris she still would’ve lost. More people didn’t turn out because their savings were decreased because their wages haven’t matched the rise in inflation. Even though Biden had helped lower inflation, people still felt left behind, and rather than not listen to them or say they’re wrong, they should’ve empathized with them and said, don’t worry we’ll help out.
We will never go forward if we continue on in this manner instead of having solidarity, but that can never happen if you guys keep interpreting warnings and advice as Russian bots and use that as an opportunity to tear down others, plug your ears, and prop up a genocide. And ya, I voted for Harris, they had some good policies, but it was a messaging thing. They should’ve taken the good economic stuff from their website (stopping price gouging and we’re going to hold companies accountable, the $25,000 to help buy a home thing, fighting pharmacy companies to make medicine affordable, etc), keep abortion in there as it was a strong issue, and maybe add some new stuff (we’ll bring back some pandemic measures to help you buy food and build up your savings again, like child tax credit or loans, because that’s when people remember having the most savings), don’t be afraid to say working-class instead of the middle-class, and then hammered that over and over again. Instead their most repeated talking points were that they’re saving democracy, they’ll reach out to neocon Republicans and put them in the cabinet, have the most lethal army in the world, and keep doing all the same stuff as the current Administration, a presently unpopular one. And abortion, but I think that was actually a good strategy, it just should have been supplemented with the other stuff.
There was also stuff they could’ve said to appease the Muslim voters while still being vague for the pro-genocide people, like “We will uphold the law with regards to selling weapons to allies.” It’s not a 100% yes on the arms embargo but it gives hope to people looking for any lifeline on the Gaza issue. It’s like what she about the trans thing.
But anyway, they didn’t do that, and the signs for this result were there when liberals, like the ones in this very thread, refused to abandon bullying as a strategy, and continued to think they could just gaslight people into thinking it would work after it didn’t work in 2016. Maybe it’ll work in 2028 if we still have democracy then, but only because people will be tired of Trump again by then and they’ll be able to run literally anyone to beat him (like in 2020).
And you were trying to do that by throwing a whole other demographic under the bus.
Yes, of course, that’s what I was trying to do by advocating for the less bad of two options. /s
Like, this wasn’t “I’m sacrificing the Palestinian people for my own safety”, it was “This is literally the least bad option for Palestine as well.” People in Palestine understood this. But apparently it’s too emotionally charged for some online ‘leftists’.
We will never go forward if we continue on in this manner instead of having solidarity, but that can never happen if you guys keep interpreting warnings and advice as Russian bots **and use that as an opportunity to tear down others, plug your ears, and prop up a genocide. **
This is quite hilarious considering the same people you’re defending.
And ya, I voted for Harris, they had some good policies, but it was a messaging thing.
See, every time a Dem loses, I’m told it’s messaging, but every time it’s pointed out what messages the Dem actually put out, it’s drowned out by the fact that both left and right do nothing but beat the drum on whatever they see as the Dem candidate’s weakness regardless of what their strengths are.
There was also stuff they could’ve said to appease the Muslim voters while still being vague for the pro-genocide people, like “We will uphold the law with regards to selling weapons to allies.” It’s not a 100% yes on the arms embargo but it gives hope to people looking for any lifeline on the Gaza issue. It’s like what she about the trans thing.
I don’t know, maybe something like saying the Palestinian people must be helped to “realize their right to dignity, security, freedom and self-determination” while calling for a ceasefire and saying she “will not be silent” on Gazan suffering?
Oh, wait, that’s right, the selfsame people who said “Calling for a ceasefire is all I need to vote for the Dem candidate” immediately moved their goalposts once it happened, because Palestinian genocide was never the actual issue. They don’t give a single fuck about more deaths or less deaths. They just want to play purity politics, and people giving them asspats for doing so are encouraging this behavior.
But anyway, they didn’t do that, and the signs for this result were there when liberals, like the ones in this very thread, refused to abandon bullying as a strategy, and continued to think they could just gaslight people into thinking it would work after it didn’t work in 2016.
“Bullying is when you point out that a strategy is dogshit and senseless, and the more you do it, the more bullying it is.”
Like, I don’t know what the fuck to tell you. You voted for Harris, so you clearly understand on some level that abstaining is a dogshit answer, but you seem to be bending backwards to accommodate morons who’ve just willfully assisted in the deaths of tens of thousands of people, minimum, for no other reason than their own vanity.
maybe it’ll work in 2028 if we still have democracy then,
Wow, I really wish someone would’ve emphasized that losing democracy was a very real consequence of throwing the election, but apparently, that’s bullying.
Like, this wasn’t “I’m sacrificing the Palestinian people for my own safety”, it was “This is literally the least bad option for Palestine as well.” People in Palestine understood this. But apparently it’s too emotionally charged for some online ‘leftists’.
Tap for spoiler
No, the least bad option is no genocide.
If everyone who tried to quell dissent on Harris’s policies on Gaza instead pushed on the administration I guarantee they would’ve changed their mind. They adapted other issues through out the campaign. But they didn’t on this one because they thought they could get away with a genocide and still win the election.
And even your article says they don’t think Harris winning will stop the suffering either, so very motivating for people /s. If you want voters, you need to give them motivation. Apathy is the worst thing that can happen for turn out. Telling them to vote for the person killing their family sounds like the most demotivating thing I can think of. It’s not emotionally charged, well it is, but it’s just electoral strategy, too.
The good news is that they have established their power as a coalition, and hopefully we can leverage this in the future. Now the Zionists aren’t the only votes they have to be scared of losing, and we can build on that to pull the Dems left. Maybe. I hope lol.
This is quite hilarious considering the same people you’re defending.
Tap for spoiler
What people? Those trying to push the party left so it doesn’t lose like this every year? Genocide victims? Sorry, but I will never feel bad about defending people fighting against a genocide or suffering from one. You’re willing to try but my morals don’t bend that way.
See, every time a Dem loses, I’m told it’s messaging, but every time it’s pointed out what messages the Dem actually put out, it’s drowned out by the fact that both left and right do nothing but beat the drum on whatever they see as the Dem candidate’s weakness regardless of what their strengths are.
Tap for spoiler
True, everyone has an opinion. The right says the Dems are too far left, but Kamala hewed to the center hard this time, including a record number of Republicans at the DNC, and still lost. There are a bunch of other reasons I think this keeps revealing itself to be false (blue candidates, including women, and ballot measures winning down ballot all over the country even in states that went to Trump, Trump winning on vague populist vibes of the economy as revealed in opinion polls with the other fascist part of his policies like immigration or scary trans people being ranked less in priority, his more multi-racial voters suggesting that too, the change in numbers between 2020 for Trump and Harris shows people not switching to conservative but instead just a depressed turn out, the Muslim vote numbers for Biden in 2020 being like 86% compared to Harris in 2024 being something like 40%, etc). She ran a standard Democratic campaign emblematic of not only the current administration but every one during their lifetime since Reagan, and people are tired of neoliberalism, although most can’t express that, they can still feel it. People hear about these nice, liberal policies, but they don’t see it reflected in their bank accounts, so they stop caring about the Democrat’s technocratic incremental 12 point plans after awhile, because they’ve heard these are happening under Biden, too, but they figure they must not do anything. But I guess that’s just another opinion lol.
I know other people think it’s her not having enough time or Biden not dropping out soon enough or something. That might have helped give her more time to spread her policies, but I doubt that was the main reason. I still think she could’ve won with the right strategy with the time she had and that huge upswing of energy when she entered the race.
I don’t know, maybe something like saying the Palestinian people must be helped to “realize their right to dignity, security, freedom and self-determination” while calling for a ceasefire and saying she “will not be silent” on Gazan suffering?
Tap for spoiler
It’s hard for people to believe that when the administration you are a part of says the same thing while continuing to arm the genocidal IDF army for the tunes of billions of dollars. Not to mention denying Palestinian speakers at the DNC while inviting families of hostages, bringing up October 7th first every interview and calling that the biggest tragedy, saying you wouldn’t change anything from the Biden campaign, emphasizing Israel every time Palestine is brought up before and after Palestine, kicking out a Muslim person in the audience at a rally, sending the cops after protestors, saying we’ll have the most lethal army in the world, saying Iran is the world’s biggest threat while their neighbor is doing a genocide, her staff reiterating that an arms embargo was 100% off the table removing any chance of leverage to enact material change, Trump going to their community before you do, and it goes on and on… That quote comes off insincere when everything else you do and say indicates the opposite. The fact that another red line has come and passed without the US changing position on Israel proves the Biden administration’s insincerity on this issue even more.
Oh, wait, that’s right, the selfsame people who said “Calling for a ceasefire is all I need to vote for the Dem candidate” immediately moved their goalposts once it happened, because Palestinian genocide was never the actual issue. They don’t give a single fuck about more deaths or less deaths. They just want to play purity politics, and people giving them asspats for doing so are encouraging this behavior.
Tap for spoiler
Nah, it’s because the White House purposefully and cynically used a different definition of the word ceasefire than the one all the activists and aid workers understood it to mean. This article explains it well. A ceasefire without leverage would cause the genocide to resume immediately after a hostage exchange, and everyone knows this because Israel is the aggressor and has been since the 1920’s. If her campaign didn’t clarify that an arms embargo is 100% off the table, against our own laws btw, than maybe just a call for a ceasefire would’ve worked, but I doubt it without some sort of explanation of how she was going to accomplish it. She was willing to explain how she’d accomplish other policies, such as through tax credits and such, but not that one for some reason except to say Diplomacy which hasn’t worked for the last year, and everyone knows won’t work now.
“Bullying is when you point out that a strategy is dogshit and senseless, and the more you do it, the more bullying it is.”
I hope not, because that’s what I’ve been saying about the Democratic electoral strategy since before the election lol. I see bullying as more ad hominem attacks, like telling people if they don’t vote for the person arming the person killing their family, you’ll exult in them all dieing or getting deported. Not saying you’ve done that specifically, buts it’s gotten pretty racist in here lately (but not as bad as Reddit at least).
Like, I don’t know what the fuck to tell you. You voted for Harris, so you clearly understand on some level that abstaining is a dogshit answer, but you seem to be bending backwards to accommodate morons who’ve just willfully assisted in the deaths of tens of thousands of people, minimum, for no other reason than their own vanity.
Tap for spoiler
The thing is, I thought it would’ve been a lot easier to convince the candidate to change their genocide policy than convincing thousands of people to change their moral values. Essentially, it’s because I wanted her to win that I foresaw a problem with her electoral strategy and kept trying to do something. It’s why I started that vote swapping thread that went nowhere and kept trying to encourage empathizing with the unhappy people in the US rather than ignoring them. Because I saw blaming the voters in 2016 didn’t fix shit, and instead we’re going to have to learn some lessons. But no one was learning them, instead trusting that 2020 wasn’t just a fluke because of the pandemic.
Idk man, I know we’re all hurt right now, but at this point I’m seriously losing hope in the Democratic party, and I blame them 1000% more than the voters because if I could see the mistakes being made there’s no way other more qualified people couldn’t either. If they win 2028 it’s purely because continual enshittification and failing material conditions means that the voters will vote against anyone in power during the death throes of this falling empire, and not because they’ll change anything. That’s my guess - that unless another Bernie-like figure with Obama’s charisma comes, in who’s also promising sweeping changes to the internal systems of the US and not just trying to treat the symptoms - that we’re going to be switching off on one-term Presidents forever.
At least some other people are realizing this, too. I just hope that the country is not too atomized to assemble some sort of alternate coalition before its too late. We need to get off these tracks before we fall into fascism.
Sorry for the length of all this, I won’t blame you if you skip most of It. Adding spoiler tags so it doesn’t take up too much room in the thread. Honestly, this comment has been a great way to organize my thoughts and feeling on all this, too. It wasn’t when I started, I didn’t mean to subject you and Lemmy to it, I think we’re all just looking for catharsis right now lol.
Take a long look, this is what leftist victories look like
Who could have predicted this???
Me 🧙
Every UN country except Israel & the US.
No they knew too, just were ok with it.
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ITT there’s a lot of people unwilling to accept the Democrats didn’t prove their case. They didn’t convince the Arabs they would be any better for Palestinians. They didn’t convince unions they would be any better for them. And they certainly didn’t convince anyone leaning truly left to vote for them by seeking Republican endorsements.
Look, I think Harris did the best anyone could with the cards she got dealt. But blaming the voters has never been a winning strategy.
ITT there’s a lot of people unwilling to accept the Democrats didn’t prove their case.
seriously, stop with this bullshit line.
if you can’t vote against a Nazi, then you are a Nazi.
I’m sorry was Richard Spencer on the ballot? How far does this transitive property go? Is the entire family of the voter now Nazis too? After all they have to sit at the table with the person and we know what you all say about sitting at tables with Nazis.
This is a shit attempt at moral blackmail.
It’s pretty simple.
1 + 1 = 2
If you didn’t vote for a Nazi, you aren’t a Nazi.
- you vote nazi = A
- you are nazi = B
!A == !B
The question is, did you vote for a Nazi?
Oh so now you have to affirmatively vote for a Nazi. Well good news, Trump isn’t a Nazi, or a Neo Nazi. There are other flavors of shitty politics.
He is a Nazi. Blonde-haired blue-eyed Nazi.
His political campaign is built upon Hitler’s rise to power. Not a 1:1, that’d just be fucking weird and obvious.
I’m not gonna argue semantics here with you. If you didn’t vote against a Nazi, you are a Nazi.
If you don’t speak out against Nazis, you’re a fucking Nazi.
Fuck Nazis.
See? That’s easy. How about you try?
Oh I don’t like Nazis either. But his political campaign isn’t built on Hitler’s. It’s a pretty stock modern campaign that had better messaging than the Democrats. And before you accuse me of liking his messaging, he won the election. So it was better messaging.
Calling everyone who doesn’t vote for the Democrats a Nazi just isn’t a winning message. That may seem weird to you but all everyone else hears is that you don’t know what a Nazi is, and you’re just throwing a word around.
Especially this new transitive power of being a Nazi by doing nothing. Even in the aftermath of World War 2 you weren’t considered a Nazi without a party number. By the time you’re done accusing people of being Nazis by the transitive power, everyone, yourself included, will be a Nazi. After all, you might accidentally sit at a table with one and then poof, you magically get an evil fashion sense.
Oh I don’t like Nazis either. But his political campaign isn’t built on Hitler’s. It’s a pretty stock modern campaign that had better
messagingpropaganda than the Democrats. And before you accuse me of liking hismessagingpropaganda, he won the election. So it was bettermessagingpropaganda.fixed it. The fact that you’re calling it “messaging”, tells me all I need to know about you.
Calling everyone who doesn’t vote for the Democrats a Nazi just isn’t a winning message. That may seem weird to you but all everyone else hears is that you don’t know what a Nazi is, and you’re just throwing a word around.
I’m not calling anyone who didn’t vote for Democrat a Nazi. I’m calling anyone who didn’t perceive Trump as a fascist threat, and voted against the obvious choice, a Nazi. Either you understood the threat that Donald Trump poses to continuing American life as we know it, or you actively supported him being in power. There will no other options but Harris and Trump. There’s no gray area. It’s pretty black and white. You either vote against the fascist, or you support the fascist.
Especially this new transitive power of being a Nazi by doing nothing. Even in the aftermath of World War 2 you weren’t considered a Nazi without a party number.
Technically German citizens didn’t do anything for the rise of power of Hitler. People still make jokes about how Germans are Nazis. 99% of the population there wasn’t even alive for World War II. The shame was immeasurable and impacted Germany economically and psychologically as a culture. Why would there be shame if they weren’t ashamed of what they did? And if they were ashamed, that means they’re guilty. Guilty of what? Being a Nazi.
I wonder how the prisoners in the concentration camps after World War II felt when they went back home and their neighbors knew where they were and still they did nothing. Do you think that they… understood their neighbors weren’t Nazis? Do you think they cared? I don’t.
By the time you’re done accusing people of being Nazis by the transitive power, everyone, yourself included, will be a Nazi. After all, you might accidentally sit at a table with one and then poof, you magically get an evil fashion sense.
One does not “accidentally sit at a table of Nazis”. When you find out the table is Nazis, you fuck up the table.
Whenever I find out somebody’s a Nazi, I punch them in the face as hard as I possibly can. There’s no delay. There’s no guilt. Believe it or not, a fist straight to the face. Today, I’m proud to say, my daily life is 100% Nazi-free. I’m not sure how much longer I can keep this winning streak up though. You may willingly sit at a table with Nazis out of a sense of politeness, but I will burn that motherfucker down.
So no, there’s not a “transitive power” on Nazis. It’s pretty cut and clear. You either are a Nazi, or you are not. Like if you voted against fascism, or not.
Why does the blame go for Harris for not convincing people when it was clear to anyone paying attention that Trump was going to be worse?
This sounds like how people talk after being obviously wrong and not being able to accept being wrong.
If there are two paths and once says “Doom” and the other says nothing, only a fool picks the marked path. Only a fool who cannot accept responsibility blames the unmarked path for not being clearly marked “NOT Doom”
When one person says they are going to do bad shit, it’s not on the other side to convince you they wont also do bad shit. The person assuming the one not talking who to doing bad shit will do it away because reasons is the problem. There is no one to blame but themselves. They will be a tool until they seize their agency and make an informed decision.
Stop being a tool.
That’s the thing though. In regards to Gaza both paths were marked “Doom”. With regards to the left, courting actual Republicans clearly marked both paths “Conservative”.
Your analogy depends on your point of view being everyone’s point of view. This is a fundamental failing of the democrats this year. They again acted like they were the only obvious choice and nobody could possibly have a legitimate opinion otherwise.
If you ignore voters and let party elders call them Russian agents then it’s not exactly rocket science that they aren’t going to vote for you.
Fine one says “more doom” and the other says “less doom” and you picked more doom because it didn’t quantified how much less.
The point is you picked more doom well. Blaming the signage being inadequate. The sign was clear to anyone that hadn’t shoved their head up their own ass.
You’re still not getting it. You can’t have “just a little” genocide. There is no more or less doom. There is only doom.
You can definitely have a just a little genocide.
You’re inability to comprehend this lead to more genocide. It doesn’t matter if you can see it or accept it; reality doesn’t need you to understand.
Okay. So you don’t understand the word Genocide. Got it.
There were two paths. One path was the dems, who I’ll be the first to admit, not doing a great job with Gaza. The other, was Trump, who is buddies with Israel’s prime minister to a first name basis, moved the embassy to Jerusalem specifically in support for Israel over all others and has proven to have nothing but disdain for anyone else in the region.
I’m sure the people in Gaza hearing the guy who is actively excited about their deaths really appreciate those who didn’t vote “showing the dems” to swap out people at least attempting peace talks.
And frankly not voting to prove a point is like fucking for virginity. All you do is tell the politicians that have an interest against you they don’t have to worry about you, you won’t vote against them either.
None of that makes sense. If the Dems are just greenlighting everything anyways, what’s the point for someone who cares about Gaza?
If the Dems are taking victory laps on a failed economy, what’s the point for a working class family?
If the Dems are actively courting the conservative family members of war criminals who lied to us to kill 4,000 Americans, what’s the point for antiwar activists?
There is not two paths when the Democrats are acting like this.
Dems have been going for peace talks. Again, not great, but bout to find out what greenlighting everything really looks like.
Failed economy, inflation was across the world, the US came out of it better in this administration than the others. Dems were pushing to get money for first time homeowners to try to get houses, get minimum wage raised, and to dial back student loans. The Republican House had blocked every step of the way but the movement went. Instead we got the guy who is buddy buddy and wants to put in the place to deal with government spending the guy who’s a union buster and wants to kill paid overtime.
The conservative family members. I got no answers, like holy shit the worst commendation you can get is from Dick Cheney.
But all of the above is put best “A vote is not a valentine, you’re not professing your love for the candidate. It’s a chess move for the world you want to live in.” Whelp, the move made was to put us into checkmate. Hope you like the Republican ideals, because if MAGAs can be dug out of the other branches of government, if the US continues as it always has and the scales don’t completely fail, we’re still going to have an ultra-conservative Supreme Court for what is likely the rest of our lives.
Going for peace talks? They fully supported Netanyahu’s every move. Biden said the word peace and sent bombs that are literally nicknamed block busters.
If the Republicans are blocking economic reform then that’s the message, not one of victory and whining that people just don’t get it. All the average person heard was how proud Biden was of the economy. Meanwhile the working class is drowning in an affordability crisis.
The chess moves must at least be moving in the correct direction. Or in the Bus analogy, you don’t get on a bus to hell just because they’re both going there.
Whelp, either way, got what you wanted, dems lost. Hope your high minded ideals on sitting aside helps us not be on the bus to hell, because you’re still living here and the consequences aren’t going to walk past you and yours with “Oh, you didn’t vote? A’ight, you get to sit this thing out.”
The people who didn’t vote aren’t dumb. They either don’t believe they’re in an impacted group, or don’t believe the Democrats would be meaningfully better. It’s really that simple.
And that’s where I’m in constant disagreement. If this was a minor situation, I’d be probably more chill about it all, but the whole not thinking they’re going to be in an impacted group is a thing because the groups that will not be impacted in this is so small.
Have coworker who just realized his being on his dad’s insurance is because of ACA. Have a coworker who was complaining about price of soybeans because his family was in that, that was Trumps last trade war with China and he’s wanting to start a bigger one. The Republicans wanting to deregulate most industries will affect internet, food, unions, etc.
The things people complain about the democrats not standing up to the republicans have actively opposed. Been a final line in the sand for the massive sweeping social changes the conservatives have wanted to do since Nixon and Reagan.
My arguments have never been “love the democrats”, it was “we just tossed the foxes into the henhouse.”
I agree with everything you’re saying except for this part. A lot of voters are very dumb (they mostly voted for Trump and he is planning tariffs that will tank the economy, including for them, for example). But, the Democrats also need to adapt to the voter base and the issues they care about. I think both things can be true lol.
Hmmm I guess there are some benefits to a Trump administration… 🤷🏻♂️
Fucking war criminals
Wait, why would it make any difference if Donald is elected?
I thought everyone was saying that Biden and Harris were doing nothing about the Palestinians.
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They weren’t “doing nothing” idiot. They are actively sending weapons. They belong in jail or on the chair.
They said they wanted a two state solution. Trump has always been a burn it to the ground guy on that topic.
Biden is Kamala’s boss, so she toes his line while VP, that’s how the job usually works, unless you’re Cheney.
So playing the odds at least there’s a chance of survival with Kamala. With Trump it’s just nuked, but without actual nukes.
But hey, Kamala wasn’t good enough so let’s go with the nukes👍
Once again, human spite has the force to move mountains.
And that’s why I didn’t feel like I was betraying Palestine by voting for Harris
I used to be very annoyed by that mindset. But I get it now. You know as an american democrat, you are guilty of that genocide anyway, so a little more or a little less doesn’t really change thing.
This comment was deleted, but the fact that the user “fuckisrael” is the one who made it is deeply funny to me. Guess that one wasn’t a Russian spy after all. I don’t think they’d be active at this point otherwise.
The liberals never believed that accusation themselves; it was just a way to neg leftists into voting for Harris.
Oh wow, it’s a mind reader.
it’s
Case in point
Yeah “it” because fascist aren’t people. They’re dangerous destructive things that shouldn’t be tolerated.
Genocide denial is fascist.
i hope all those lefties that refused to vote feel really accomplished now.
congrats, guys! you did it!
you installed a fascist dictator!
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