Okay, I hope you understand why this is wrong to say, right?
not all intimate relationships involve sex, but even if
many trans women are sterile. be it from orchiectomy or full-on bottom surgery, but even if not
many (if not most) trans women are uninterested in or even repulsed to be the penetrating partner during sex, if they are even capable of it
There is a definitive point to be made to avoid penis-in-vagina sex to protect oneself. There is also a certain lysistratite point to denying men, who as a group are predominantly responsible for denying women bodily and social autonomy including reproductive and contraceptive rights, the pleasure of a relationship or sex in general.
But the only reason I see why lesbian relationships, and that includes trans women, should be under scrutiny as well, is bigotry.
I think you’re seeing bigotry where there was none intended. I was trying to make my language as clear as possible and obviously failed.
Honestly, talking isn’t my strong suit, nor is trying to explain things to people looking to fault me at every turn.
I could try and explain my point to you again about avoiding the possibility of pregnancy if your life is quite literally on the line, but I doubt it will change anything about how you read me.
For what it’s worth, I am a queer afab who has had more than a few close relationships, and plenty of friendships, with both trans women and trans men, and have been an ally since I got into feminism as a young teen.
don’t worry, I fully believe that you meant no harm. I think we’re both pretty much in agreement that it is a very reasonable stance for people who can get pregnant to not have sex with people that can get them pregnant. in our current society and political climate that is basic self protection.
where I think we need to be more careful is when it comes to demands of the 4b movement, because that goes beyond individual protection towards political demands. No sex and no children are part of the self protection when it comes to bodily autonomy, but no dating and no marriage are political in nature. A woman might still decide to not have sex nor children, even without the political aspirations of 4b, but still find a male partner to date or marry. Because men, while as a group the main cause of gender inequality, are also not a monolith, and there are many who share the goals of feminism and bodily autonomy.
The 4b movement is a statement then, a boycott of men as a group, if you will. And it is unequivocally wrong to include trans women in that group. Trans women also suffer under patriarchy, maybe in other ways than cis women, but not any less. The question of bodily autonomy is just as much a concern for trans- as it is for cis women (and trans men, in that regard).
I know it’s a bit more complicated than that, as (from what I’ve read) some parts of the movement forswear all relationships and sexual encounters, even WLW relationships, and ask others to do the same. Maybe that’s because queer issues are not as prominent in South Korea, so lesbians and bi/pan women aren’t taken into consideration as much in the movement. In that case, I see that as a problem as well. But if WLW relationships are accepted in the movement, then it isn’t okay to exclude trans women in general.
Of course, no women is obligated to want to date trans women, or any other woman for that matter. And obviously everyone should prioritize their own safety, and if that means no sex with pre-op trans women, or, if sex is integral for your love life, not even dating trans women, then that is also perfectly reasonable. But those must be individual considerations, not broad generalizations. And no one should be condemned for their choice, or lack of choice, in partner.
And that is not even going into how enbies and transmasc people factor in to all this. But I’ve rambled for long enough, I hope I didn’t come across as too preachy. We’re on the same side here, I’m pretty sure. I’ve just seen to many feminist narratives co-opted by hateful people to not be super careful when it comes these topics, so I wanted to nip any opportunity for mischaracterization in the bud. Sorry if that sounded like I was attacking you, in particular. It might even be that the trans angle on the whole movement was exaggerated by biased wikipedia editors, as others have discussed in this thread. If so, sorry again for making this a bigger deal than it is. Have a nice day c:
If ovulating folk in ‘western’ countries are to adopt 4b, you are right, we do need to update it to fit our understanding of feminism for it to be politically viable as a movement here.
Trans men need to be included as ovulating folk at risk of pregnancy and trans women need to be included as women who are not at risk of pregnancy. (The pre-op rant you basically covered so I’m not going to rewrite again it in my own words.)
I think this about covers the updating tbh:
1: Don’t fuck Conservatives.
2: Don’t have relationships with Conservatives.
3: Don’t have relationships or encounters where PiV sex could impregnate you.
4: Spousal rape happens more often than you think, so just don’t be in a relationship where pregnancy is possible.
5: Don’t reproduce.
6: Don’t be a bigot.
3 and 4 could probably do with more eloquent wording as they could potentially be misconstrued in bigoty ways, but I think that about covers it.
Then again, I’m not someone who has an easy time understanding what needs to be communicated to get a point across efficiently for most people to be able to understand it, so this really is basically just another rant on the internet at this point. And not to mention I’m waaay too autistic and traumatised to be political active beyond this anymore, idk, hopefully others are coming to the same conclusions and can spread the word I suppose.
Yeah, you put it perfectly. Sorry that I was so standoffish as well '-. Good point on the spousal rape, I didn’t consider it enough. Someone who appears perfectly civil, progressive and feminist might turn out to be a rapist too, and if pregnancy is a possibility, going off impressions alone is a risk you can’t take. Thanks for raising that point! And have a nice day c:
Okay, I hope you understand why this is wrong to say, right?
There is a definitive point to be made to avoid penis-in-vagina sex to protect oneself. There is also a certain lysistratite point to denying men, who as a group are predominantly responsible for denying women bodily and social autonomy including reproductive and contraceptive rights, the pleasure of a relationship or sex in general.
But the only reason I see why lesbian relationships, and that includes trans women, should be under scrutiny as well, is bigotry.
I think you’re seeing bigotry where there was none intended. I was trying to make my language as clear as possible and obviously failed.
Honestly, talking isn’t my strong suit, nor is trying to explain things to people looking to fault me at every turn.
I could try and explain my point to you again about avoiding the possibility of pregnancy if your life is quite literally on the line, but I doubt it will change anything about how you read me.
For what it’s worth, I am a queer afab who has had more than a few close relationships, and plenty of friendships, with both trans women and trans men, and have been an ally since I got into feminism as a young teen.
don’t worry, I fully believe that you meant no harm. I think we’re both pretty much in agreement that it is a very reasonable stance for people who can get pregnant to not have sex with people that can get them pregnant. in our current society and political climate that is basic self protection.
where I think we need to be more careful is when it comes to demands of the 4b movement, because that goes beyond individual protection towards political demands. No sex and no children are part of the self protection when it comes to bodily autonomy, but no dating and no marriage are political in nature. A woman might still decide to not have sex nor children, even without the political aspirations of 4b, but still find a male partner to date or marry. Because men, while as a group the main cause of gender inequality, are also not a monolith, and there are many who share the goals of feminism and bodily autonomy.
The 4b movement is a statement then, a boycott of men as a group, if you will. And it is unequivocally wrong to include trans women in that group. Trans women also suffer under patriarchy, maybe in other ways than cis women, but not any less. The question of bodily autonomy is just as much a concern for trans- as it is for cis women (and trans men, in that regard).
I know it’s a bit more complicated than that, as (from what I’ve read) some parts of the movement forswear all relationships and sexual encounters, even WLW relationships, and ask others to do the same. Maybe that’s because queer issues are not as prominent in South Korea, so lesbians and bi/pan women aren’t taken into consideration as much in the movement. In that case, I see that as a problem as well. But if WLW relationships are accepted in the movement, then it isn’t okay to exclude trans women in general.
Of course, no women is obligated to want to date trans women, or any other woman for that matter. And obviously everyone should prioritize their own safety, and if that means no sex with pre-op trans women, or, if sex is integral for your love life, not even dating trans women, then that is also perfectly reasonable. But those must be individual considerations, not broad generalizations. And no one should be condemned for their choice, or lack of choice, in partner.
And that is not even going into how enbies and transmasc people factor in to all this. But I’ve rambled for long enough, I hope I didn’t come across as too preachy. We’re on the same side here, I’m pretty sure. I’ve just seen to many feminist narratives co-opted by hateful people to not be super careful when it comes these topics, so I wanted to nip any opportunity for mischaracterization in the bud. Sorry if that sounded like I was attacking you, in particular. It might even be that the trans angle on the whole movement was exaggerated by biased wikipedia editors, as others have discussed in this thread. If so, sorry again for making this a bigger deal than it is. Have a nice day c:
I get you. Sorry for being terse.
If ovulating folk in ‘western’ countries are to adopt 4b, you are right, we do need to update it to fit our understanding of feminism for it to be politically viable as a movement here.
Trans men need to be included as ovulating folk at risk of pregnancy and trans women need to be included as women who are not at risk of pregnancy. (The pre-op rant you basically covered so I’m not going to rewrite again it in my own words.)
I think this about covers the updating tbh:
1: Don’t fuck Conservatives.
2: Don’t have relationships with Conservatives.
3: Don’t have relationships or encounters where PiV sex could impregnate you.
4: Spousal rape happens more often than you think, so just don’t be in a relationship where pregnancy is possible.
5: Don’t reproduce.
6: Don’t be a bigot.
3 and 4 could probably do with more eloquent wording as they could potentially be misconstrued in bigoty ways, but I think that about covers it.
Then again, I’m not someone who has an easy time understanding what needs to be communicated to get a point across efficiently for most people to be able to understand it, so this really is basically just another rant on the internet at this point. And not to mention I’m waaay too autistic and traumatised to be political active beyond this anymore, idk, hopefully others are coming to the same conclusions and can spread the word I suppose.
Yeah, you put it perfectly. Sorry that I was so standoffish as well '-. Good point on the spousal rape, I didn’t consider it enough. Someone who appears perfectly civil, progressive and feminist might turn out to be a rapist too, and if pregnancy is a possibility, going off impressions alone is a risk you can’t take. Thanks for raising that point! And have a nice day c: