Permanent daylight time gives us all of the downsides and exactly one benefit. I’m sorry you live that far North/South but that’s just how the seasons and tilt of the earth work. We shouldn’t be doing split time at all and we shouldn’t endeavor to be an hour off the rest of the world just so commuters can drive home with the sun in their eyes.
You’re using a tilted and flattened map. Look at the US on Google Earth. It’s not level with latitude lines, and the northern states are expanded on any flat representation.
This is most noticeable at the equator, where there is no large variation. (There’s about 8 minutes difference due to secondary things, not axial tilt.)
And? We’re not abolishing timezones any time soon. So there’s always going to be that issue of the easternmost and westernmost towns in a time zone. That’s not a reason for anything.
Time zones change the sunset time east and west as well.
Abolishing time zones has nothing to do with “fixing” daylight savings.
Even if we all switched to UTC and got rid of time zones . Everyone would have to decide when to go to bed, when to wake up, and when to work to fit it around the sun.
5:13pm CST is 11:13pm UTC
If Sioux Falls wanted to stay “standard time” for the sun. They would have to start work at 3pm UTC and get off work at 11pm UTC. (9am to 5pm)
Yet they could decide that they wanted to get “daylight savings time” for the sun, they would start work at 2pm UTC and get off at 10pm UTC. They would get one extra hour of sun after work instead of before.
The length of your day is not defined by your time zone. It is defined by your latitude, how far north of the equator you are. X degrees north gets Y hours of sunlight at N time of year.
It’s that simple. So instead of creating a fucking nightmare for commerce and programming, we should be working the hours that make sense. Being on the western edge of a time zone means your work hours should be different than on the Eastern edge.
If you shift the zone, you’re not going to get more sunlight, you’re going to get a later time to go home from your boss. The problem isn’t the time zone. It’s capitalism demanding you work the entire day away even though productivity has increased massively and we work far more than our ancestors from supposedly dreary times.
That’s why shifting the time zone is, at most, going to get you the sun in your eyes as you drive home. It’s not going to give you any more hours of sunlight. Those don’t magically appear. And it wastes energy as people try to heat the coldest part of the day instead of staying under their blankets. Savings Time literally is the worst option except in the one regard of trying to preserve afternoon light for people rich enough to enjoy it.
Permanent daylight time gives us all of the downsides and exactly one benefit. I’m sorry you live that far North/South, but that’s just how the seasons and tilt of the earth work. We shouldn’t be doing split time at all, and we shouldn’t endeavor to be an hour off the rest of the world just so commuters can drive home with the sun in their eyes.
I said “Its not just north and south,” implying that time zones pay a large part in how one experiences the sun.
Daylight savings time’s intention is not to “get more or save sunlight”. The intention is to shift the time to better use the sunlight.
Depending on where you live, you’re going to be either for or against DST more or less.
Example, if you live in El Paso TX, then staying on DST is amazing. They get 365 days where the sunsets after 6 pm while having basically the same number of days where the sun rises before 7 am . However, if you live in Auburn AL, then you probably hate permanent DST because the sun would hardly ever rise before 7 am. Auburn benefits from the current system or they get less affected by getting rid of DST.
The length of your day is not defined by your time zone. It is defined by your latitude, how far north of the equator you are. X degrees north gets Y hours of sunlight at N time of year.
Yes that is correct.
Look at Sioux Falls and Rapid City. Their daylight length is less
Sioux Falls
7:08am sunrise to 5:12pm sunset CST
Rapid City
6:36am sunrise to 4:37pm sunset MST (7:36am CST to 5:37pm CST)
Sioux Falls
10 hr 4 mins of sunlight
Rapid City
10 hr 1 mins of sunlight
Because of the latitude difference, they have a ~3 minute difference in the amount of sun tomorrow. Because latitude affects how fast the sun sets and rises, the total sunlight will be slightly different.
Let’s say you wake up at 6am.
Rapid City
Light
Sioux Falls
Dark
Now if you got off work at 5pm
Rapid City
Dark
Sioux Falls
Light
Now, would you prefer to live in Rapid City or Sioux Falls? It depends on your sleep and work schedule, probably.
What if we moved Rapid City to CST? (Basically DST, +1 hour)
Wake up 6
Dark
Get off work at 5
Light
Some people in Rapid City might enjoy that.
So instead of creating a fucking nightmare for commerce and programming, we should be working the hours that make sense.
Being on the western edge of a time zone means your work hours should be different than on the Eastern edge
These two sentences conflict so hard
Let’s look at Alabama and Georgia since the time zone splits them.
So what you’re saying is someone that lives in Alabama near the Georgia line should have a different time to go to work than some living in Alabama on the other side of the state?
Is your solution just having more time zones? Because that is more complicated and has nothing to do with daylight savings time.
The problem isn’t the time zone. It’s capitalism demanding you work the entire day away even though productivity has increased massively and we work far more than our ancestors from supposedly dreary times.
This is random.
You just want people to pick whenever they feel like working? In Sioux Falls the sun sets at 5:12pm CST tomorrow. I want 4 hours of full sunlight after work. So I should be able to work from 5:12 am to 1:12pm?
I think your point was “8 hour work day is bullshit”. And I’m not against that but that’s a whole other discussion.
Even if we all didn’t work, we would still fight over keeping our current system, staying on DST, or staying on standard time. Some will want more light in morning. Some would want it in the evening.
That’s why shifting the time zone is, at most, going to get you the sun in your eyes as you drive home.
This only happens if you have to drive west during that exact time.
What’s funny is the idea of DST tries to correct stuff like this
Say everyone from Westburg has to commute to Eastville to work (or to play because they don’t have to work and be enslaved to capitalism). Everyone is going to hate driving home afterwards if they all have to do it at the exact time the sun will shine directly into their eyes.
One solution is work begins and ends earlier or later. (Or you park your jetski early or later.)
Or you could shift the time + or - 1 hour like DST does.
Also, once again, it’s not about magically getting more sunlight. It’s about shifting the sunlight you get to better suit your desires.
And it wastes energy as people try to heat the coldest part of the day instead of staying under their blankets
Wow.
Anyways, I’m sorry you are unfortunate enough to get out of work at the time the sunset would be a problem and have to drive straight towards it.
Some people would prefer to double down on DST. Instead of falling back in the fall, you spring forward again. Then in the spring you fall back. Make DST standard. Maybe this is something you’d be interested in if you hated sun in the morning and wanted at least an hour of it after work.
There is nothing “standard” for the sun to set in Sioux Falls at 5:12pm CST. It could easily set at 6:12pm if the whole system wasn’t based off of Greenwich England. You could have had SFMT (Sioux Falls Mean Time) and then base all other time zones off of it. Sun would set at 6:12pm SFST. You could do daylight savings and turn it into the sun setting at 7:12pm SFDST. You could do daylight wasting time and make the sun set at 5:12pm SFDWT.
… do you believe the person made the image for this comment? What evidence is shown in the image for you to believe that the tilt and shape of the earth wasn’t taken into consideration for the graphic, besides it being shown as a 2d image?
You’re just like almost there, that graph isn’t about lengths of days. It’s an arbitrary representation of what someone would consider a “normal” time for the sun to set and rise. The gradient in colors is because of the shape of the earth, the blocky lines are probably the cut off counties/states that follow different timezones (would need to verify source for that though). I’ve gotta split but hopefully someone can explain it better in the mean time if you have more questions.
The gradients change based on time zones. You’ll see how they line up.
Walking over a time zone line changes time one hour, but the sunset time doesn’t magically change an hour.
Like say you are standing between Georgia and Alabama. If you walk into Georgia the sun will set at around 5:30pm EST. If you walk into Alabama the sun will set at around 4:30pm CST.
The sun is setting one hour earlier in Alabama but you are basically watching the exact same sunset.
As you go further west into Alabama the time zone change “makes more sense” because the time zone being exactly between Alabama and Georgia doesn’t make sense other than them being separate states.
Geez. that timezone separation is more fucked than I realized lol. I’ve lived in different time zones but always near the center of it and I didn’t know there was such awful cut offs that zigzag through states like that. Sucks that user stayed hostile though, not sure if they just want to argue about everything timezone related or just too embarrassed to gracefully exit.
They have to start and stop somewhere is the problem and you don’t want half a city or town using two different times. Imagine if the hardware store on one side of town closed at 8 EST and the mall on the other closed at 8 CST. Theoretically, they could be right next to each other even. For example, if you lived by the hardware store but worked at the mall, things would be a mess.
So really not awful cut offs but more weird cut offs. Because making standard cut offs doesn’t make it any better. Kind of like, best they can be with current system.
I find time zones and everything so interesting and that people don’t understand it at all. Some people will say “I hate daylight savings time” when they like the extra hour of light in the evening but hate changing their clocks. They like DST but hate changing the clocks and probably want to stay on DST always.
There’s no best way to do it. It’s all preference.
I compared Sioux Falls SD to Rapid City SD in another comment on this thread. If Rapid City was CST like Sioux Falls the sun would set 25 minutes later in Rapid City, but since it is MST the sun sets 35 minutes before.
You also got to think some start work at 8 some start at 9. If you start at 9, you’re more likely in favor of DST.
Yeah a lot of misinformation around DST. People don’t like being wrong and I guess the image didn’t fit what they wanted to be right. Oh well lol
There is no formal requirement for your state to stay within its current timezone.
If we go to permanent DST, you can petition for your state to switch to the next timezone to the west, which would give you the same time as permanent standard time in your current timezone. Detroit, for example, is on the western edge of ET. Sunrise in winter for them would be as late as 9AM, which is ridiculous. But, if Michigan shifts to CT instead of ET, sunrise goes to 8AM, and everyone is happy.
Move yourself from EDT to CDT, which is the same as EST. Or move from CDT to MDT/CST. Or MDT to PDT/MST. Or PDT to AKDT/PST.
If you don’t want to drive home with your the sun in your eyes, take a job to the east of your home.
Or we could just stop trying to fuck with it and leave it on standard time. Timezones are an international standard. You could easily just adjust your business hours. Instead we’re out here bending everything, even literal time around the capitalist demand for productivity. Just stop fucking with it.
UTC offsets are an international standard. The specific UTC offset to adopt in any particular geographic area is by no means an international standard. That decision is made at a relatively low level of government.
Or we could just stop trying to fuck with it and leave it on standard time.
Clearly, you and I don’t want to be in the same time zone. Let’s dump the “Standard Time” and “DST” names. They are really just confusing the issue.
Eastern Standard Time is currently UTC-5. What state are you in, and what UTC offset do you want to permanently use?
I am in easterm Ohio, and I want to be permanently on UTC-4.
I think Maine and much of New England would choose to be on permanent UTC-3, so sunset is never before 4PM.
I think Michigan would probably choose permanent UTC-5, so sunrise is never after 8AM.
Permanent daylight time gives us all of the downsides and exactly one benefit. I’m sorry you live that far North/South but that’s just how the seasons and tilt of the earth work. We shouldn’t be doing split time at all and we shouldn’t endeavor to be an hour off the rest of the world just so commuters can drive home with the sun in their eyes.
It’s not just north or south
You’re using a tilted and flattened map. Look at the US on Google Earth. It’s not level with latitude lines, and the northern states are expanded on any flat representation.
This is most noticeable at the equator, where there is no large variation. (There’s about 8 minutes difference due to secondary things, not axial tilt.)
Sioux Falls SD is 43.5460°N
Rapid City SD is 44.0805°N
Sioux Falls Sunset is at 5:13pm CST
Rapid City Sunset is at 4:38pm MST
If both cities were in CST, Rapid City sun would set at 5:38pm CST
Due to the latitude difference, the sunsets should be 25 minutes apart
However, they are 35 minutes apart due to the time zone difference
If you said “Sioux Falls is farther south than Rapid City” and tried to base sunset time on just that, you’d be wrong.
And? We’re not abolishing timezones any time soon. So there’s always going to be that issue of the easternmost and westernmost towns in a time zone. That’s not a reason for anything.
Like I said, “It’s not just north or south.”
Time zones change the sunset time east and west as well.
Abolishing time zones has nothing to do with “fixing” daylight savings.
Even if we all switched to UTC and got rid of time zones . Everyone would have to decide when to go to bed, when to wake up, and when to work to fit it around the sun.
5:13pm CST is 11:13pm UTC
If Sioux Falls wanted to stay “standard time” for the sun. They would have to start work at 3pm UTC and get off work at 11pm UTC. (9am to 5pm)
Yet they could decide that they wanted to get “daylight savings time” for the sun, they would start work at 2pm UTC and get off at 10pm UTC. They would get one extra hour of sun after work instead of before.
Okay we’re not talking about the same thing here.
The length of your day is not defined by your time zone. It is defined by your latitude, how far north of the equator you are. X degrees north gets Y hours of sunlight at N time of year.
It’s that simple. So instead of creating a fucking nightmare for commerce and programming, we should be working the hours that make sense. Being on the western edge of a time zone means your work hours should be different than on the Eastern edge.
If you shift the zone, you’re not going to get more sunlight, you’re going to get a later time to go home from your boss. The problem isn’t the time zone. It’s capitalism demanding you work the entire day away even though productivity has increased massively and we work far more than our ancestors from supposedly dreary times.
That’s why shifting the time zone is, at most, going to get you the sun in your eyes as you drive home. It’s not going to give you any more hours of sunlight. Those don’t magically appear. And it wastes energy as people try to heat the coldest part of the day instead of staying under their blankets. Savings Time literally is the worst option except in the one regard of trying to preserve afternoon light for people rich enough to enjoy it.
I said “Its not just north and south,” implying that time zones pay a large part in how one experiences the sun.
Daylight savings time’s intention is not to “get more or save sunlight”. The intention is to shift the time to better use the sunlight.
Depending on where you live, you’re going to be either for or against DST more or less.
Example, if you live in El Paso TX, then staying on DST is amazing. They get 365 days where the sunsets after 6 pm while having basically the same number of days where the sun rises before 7 am . However, if you live in Auburn AL, then you probably hate permanent DST because the sun would hardly ever rise before 7 am. Auburn benefits from the current system or they get less affected by getting rid of DST.
Yes that is correct.
Look at Sioux Falls and Rapid City. Their daylight length is less
Sioux Falls
7:08am sunrise to 5:12pm sunset CST
Rapid City
6:36am sunrise to 4:37pm sunset MST (7:36am CST to 5:37pm CST)
Sioux Falls
10 hr 4 mins of sunlight
Rapid City
10 hr 1 mins of sunlight
Because of the latitude difference, they have a ~3 minute difference in the amount of sun tomorrow. Because latitude affects how fast the sun sets and rises, the total sunlight will be slightly different.
Let’s say you wake up at 6am.
Rapid City
Light
Sioux Falls
Dark
Now if you got off work at 5pm
Rapid City
Dark
Sioux Falls
Light
Now, would you prefer to live in Rapid City or Sioux Falls? It depends on your sleep and work schedule, probably.
What if we moved Rapid City to CST? (Basically DST, +1 hour)
Wake up 6
Dark
Get off work at 5
Light
Some people in Rapid City might enjoy that.
These two sentences conflict so hard
Let’s look at Alabama and Georgia since the time zone splits them.
So what you’re saying is someone that lives in Alabama near the Georgia line should have a different time to go to work than some living in Alabama on the other side of the state?
Is your solution just having more time zones? Because that is more complicated and has nothing to do with daylight savings time.
This is random.
You just want people to pick whenever they feel like working? In Sioux Falls the sun sets at 5:12pm CST tomorrow. I want 4 hours of full sunlight after work. So I should be able to work from 5:12 am to 1:12pm?
I think your point was “8 hour work day is bullshit”. And I’m not against that but that’s a whole other discussion.
Even if we all didn’t work, we would still fight over keeping our current system, staying on DST, or staying on standard time. Some will want more light in morning. Some would want it in the evening.
This only happens if you have to drive west during that exact time.
What’s funny is the idea of DST tries to correct stuff like this
Say everyone from Westburg has to commute to Eastville to work (or to play because they don’t have to work and be enslaved to capitalism). Everyone is going to hate driving home afterwards if they all have to do it at the exact time the sun will shine directly into their eyes.
One solution is work begins and ends earlier or later. (Or you park your jetski early or later.)
Or you could shift the time + or - 1 hour like DST does.
Also, once again, it’s not about magically getting more sunlight. It’s about shifting the sunlight you get to better suit your desires.
Wow.
Anyways, I’m sorry you are unfortunate enough to get out of work at the time the sunset would be a problem and have to drive straight towards it.
Some people would prefer to double down on DST. Instead of falling back in the fall, you spring forward again. Then in the spring you fall back. Make DST standard. Maybe this is something you’d be interested in if you hated sun in the morning and wanted at least an hour of it after work.
There is nothing “standard” for the sun to set in Sioux Falls at 5:12pm CST. It could easily set at 6:12pm if the whole system wasn’t based off of Greenwich England. You could have had SFMT (Sioux Falls Mean Time) and then base all other time zones off of it. Sun would set at 6:12pm SFST. You could do daylight savings and turn it into the sun setting at 7:12pm SFDST. You could do daylight wasting time and make the sun set at 5:12pm SFDWT.
It’s all arbitrary
… do you believe the person made the image for this comment? What evidence is shown in the image for you to believe that the tilt and shape of the earth wasn’t taken into consideration for the graphic, besides it being shown as a 2d image?
Because the reasons for the varying lengths of day are well known It’s more an exercise in figuring out why the map has such slanting in it.
You’re just like almost there, that graph isn’t about lengths of days. It’s an arbitrary representation of what someone would consider a “normal” time for the sun to set and rise. The gradient in colors is because of the shape of the earth, the blocky lines are probably the cut off counties/states that follow different timezones (would need to verify source for that though). I’ve gotta split but hopefully someone can explain it better in the mean time if you have more questions.
Thank you. You did a great job explaining it.
The gradients change based on time zones. You’ll see how they line up.
Walking over a time zone line changes time one hour, but the sunset time doesn’t magically change an hour.
Like say you are standing between Georgia and Alabama. If you walk into Georgia the sun will set at around 5:30pm EST. If you walk into Alabama the sun will set at around 4:30pm CST.
The sun is setting one hour earlier in Alabama but you are basically watching the exact same sunset.
As you go further west into Alabama the time zone change “makes more sense” because the time zone being exactly between Alabama and Georgia doesn’t make sense other than them being separate states.
Geez. that timezone separation is more fucked than I realized lol. I’ve lived in different time zones but always near the center of it and I didn’t know there was such awful cut offs that zigzag through states like that. Sucks that user stayed hostile though, not sure if they just want to argue about everything timezone related or just too embarrassed to gracefully exit.
They have to start and stop somewhere is the problem and you don’t want half a city or town using two different times. Imagine if the hardware store on one side of town closed at 8 EST and the mall on the other closed at 8 CST. Theoretically, they could be right next to each other even. For example, if you lived by the hardware store but worked at the mall, things would be a mess.
So really not awful cut offs but more weird cut offs. Because making standard cut offs doesn’t make it any better. Kind of like, best they can be with current system.
I find time zones and everything so interesting and that people don’t understand it at all. Some people will say “I hate daylight savings time” when they like the extra hour of light in the evening but hate changing their clocks. They like DST but hate changing the clocks and probably want to stay on DST always.
There’s no best way to do it. It’s all preference.
I compared Sioux Falls SD to Rapid City SD in another comment on this thread. If Rapid City was CST like Sioux Falls the sun would set 25 minutes later in Rapid City, but since it is MST the sun sets 35 minutes before.
You also got to think some start work at 8 some start at 9. If you start at 9, you’re more likely in favor of DST.
Yeah a lot of misinformation around DST. People don’t like being wrong and I guess the image didn’t fit what they wanted to be right. Oh well lol
There is no formal requirement for your state to stay within its current timezone.
If we go to permanent DST, you can petition for your state to switch to the next timezone to the west, which would give you the same time as permanent standard time in your current timezone. Detroit, for example, is on the western edge of ET. Sunrise in winter for them would be as late as 9AM, which is ridiculous. But, if Michigan shifts to CT instead of ET, sunrise goes to 8AM, and everyone is happy.
Move yourself from EDT to CDT, which is the same as EST. Or move from CDT to MDT/CST. Or MDT to PDT/MST. Or PDT to AKDT/PST.
If you don’t want to drive home with your the sun in your eyes, take a job to the east of your home.
Or we could just stop trying to fuck with it and leave it on standard time. Timezones are an international standard. You could easily just adjust your business hours. Instead we’re out here bending everything, even literal time around the capitalist demand for productivity. Just stop fucking with it.
UTC offsets are an international standard. The specific UTC offset to adopt in any particular geographic area is by no means an international standard. That decision is made at a relatively low level of government.
Clearly, you and I don’t want to be in the same time zone. Let’s dump the “Standard Time” and “DST” names. They are really just confusing the issue.
Eastern Standard Time is currently UTC-5. What state are you in, and what UTC offset do you want to permanently use?
I am in easterm Ohio, and I want to be permanently on UTC-4.
I think Maine and much of New England would choose to be on permanent UTC-3, so sunset is never before 4PM.
I think Michigan would probably choose permanent UTC-5, so sunrise is never after 8AM.