• soloner@lemmy.world
    16·
    8 days ago

    I can’t tell if this in-fighting on Linux flavors is in good humor or just snobby opinions.

    • tsugu@slrpnk.netOP
      54·
      8 days ago

      I think it’s just elitism. The worst example is Chris Titus making a video where he explains why you shouldn’t use Ubuntu. And then proceeds to make video explaining how it’s not actually that bad and he uses it with a different DE.

      But now 300K people saw that Ubuntu bad for stupid reasons, from a “reputable” source.

      • caseyweederman@lemmy.ca
        32·
        6 days ago

        I’ve been using it for many years and I have no idea who Chris Titus is.
        There’s no reason to use Ubuntu over Debian, especially since Bookworm included non-free firmware in installation media by default.

        • tsugu@slrpnk.netOP
          31·
          6 days ago

          I think you’re far too gone if you genuinely believe there’s no need for Ubuntu.

          Ubuntu has its own kernel, they have a security team making patches specifically for Ubuntu, there’s a tool that detects any drivers your device needs and downloads them for you, and their GNOME implementation is the best I’ve seen. I also like the new software centre in 24.04, displaying both apt and snap packages when you search for them, really fast.

          And yes I know, you will tell me that you can replicate all of this on Debian. And you can replicate basically everything Debian can do on RHEL. So there’s no need for Debian. Ans there’s no need for RHEL since…

          If there really was no point in using Ubuntu, people wouldn’t use it. And yes this applies to Windows as well. Users aren’t braindead idiots. If there is a much better alternative that suits their needs they will use that instead.

          Edit: Also free 10 year support for non-commercial use.

          • caseyweederman@lemmy.ca
            31·
            6 days ago

            Debian has its own kernel, and security team, in fact as Ubuntu is downstream of Debian they get the full benefit of Debian’s security patches (yes Canonical maintains their own kernel, but the vast majority of other packages are pulled from Debian’s repositories), fwupd isn’t unique to Ubuntu, KDE has been combining update managers into Discover for ages, not everybody likes Gnome.
            You’re saying “replicate” like these are all things Ubuntu did first and everyone else is copying them. That’s ignorant at best and disingenuous at worst.

            • tsugu@slrpnk.netOP
              2·
              6 days ago

              That’s not what I said. I didn’t claim that Ubuntu invented the idea of a software store. I just said that they add a lot of value to Debian. So Ubuntu’s existence is perfectly justified. And replicating their setup takes time. Especially how their gnome is set up. i have a script that turns vanilla Gnome on any distro into one that looks like Ubuntu’s, so I know.

              Is Linux Mint useless as well? It just preconfigures Debian/Ubuntu to be more user friendly. Anyone can do that on their own.

              • caseyweederman@lemmy.ca
                11·
                6 days ago

                Interestingly, Mint strips away several things that Ubuntu enforces, like their Gnome setup and Snaps entirely, removing most of the “value” added by Canonical.
                More interestingly is that Linux Mint offers a Debian version, sidestepping Ubuntu completely.

                It’s fine if you like Ubuntu’s default Gnome setup. That’s the point of having multiple distros. It’s fine if you like Snaps. It’s not fine to force everyone into your ecosystem or enforce your choices on others. If you don’t think that both of those things are true of Canonical, go try to install the .deb version of Firefox.

                • tsugu@slrpnk.netOPEnglish
                  2·
                  6 days ago

                  If you don’t think that both of those things are true of Canonical, go try to install the .deb version of Firefox.

                  I opened a 24.04 VM just for fun. I cosplayed a regular user who discovered that his snap version of firefox isn’t working well.

                  https://support.mozilla.org/en-US/kb/install-firefox-linux

                  I copied and pasted the commands from there, to add mozilla’s repo and downloaded firefox from there. Then I went into Ubuntu’s new GUI app store and clicked Uninstall next to Firefox. Super hard stuff. Walled garden with walls so tall I can’t see their end.

    • rtxn@lemmy.worldMEnglish
      8·
      7 days ago

      Like most things in life, it’s somewhere in the middle. Some of the criticism is factual and valid. Some, a matter of taste (mostly relating to GNOME). Some arises from negative personal experience. Some is just elitist bluster.

      The best thing to do is to be rational and critical. Never dismiss an opinion outright without separating the truth from the bullshit.

    • BaumGeist@lemmy.ml
      10·
      7 days ago

      false dichotomy. Sometimes people justifiably dislike something for reasons beyond elitism (e.g. Canonical is a for-profit corporation that muddies the waters of FOSS), but it’s also not just playful bants.

      Also, as with every opinionated topic: do your own research and think critically. Don’t hate Ubuntu until you have tried it and have investigated those who maintain it. Don’t praise it until you do so either.

      I don’t care if you come to a different conclusion than me, as long as you didn’t just function on the “wisdom of the crowd”

  • eco_game@discuss.tchncs.de
    48·
    7 days ago

    I was pretty neutral towards Ubuntu, up until an automatic system update removed my deb Firefox and replaced it with the snap version, even though I specifically set the apt repo to a higher priority.

    The entire reason I left Windows is because I don’t want (for example) Edge shoved down my throat after every update, and yet Ubuntu has gone and done the exact same thing with snaps.

    After literal hours of fighting, the only solution I found was to fully disable automatic updates. With Pop OS I have all the benefits of Ubuntu, but I also get a company (System76) that does cool stuff and doesn’t try shoving snaps down my throat.

  • starbrite@lemmy.zipEnglish
    12·
    6 days ago

    I’d love ubuntu, my only real problem with it is it’s owned by a company and not community backed

  • chronicledmonocle@lemmy.world
    309·
    7 days ago

    I don’t get why anybody uses Ubuntu. Just use Debian. It’s basically more stable and functional Ubuntu, but without snaps and you don’t need an entire distro branch for different DEs.

    • Rolling Resistance@lemmy.world
      12·
      7 days ago

      Because it’s a popular distro. Because when you look for “how to X in linux”, there’s a 90% chance the response will be about Ubuntu. Because your workplace said so. The list goes on.

    • wreckedcarzz@lemmy.worldEnglish
      3·
      6 days ago

      Rant, but not at you.

      Well I would use Debian, but the last two systems I tried to install it on hung at some point in the install process. I tried multiple times, multiple downloads, multiple versions (across multiple months!), and these are two separate machines from two different vendors.

      Debian is fine on my server boxes, but fuck me it’s dogshit in a consumer environment. One of those laptops has - and is an absolute necessity to have working - WWAN. I tried over a dozen distros, from ‘easy and popular’ to ‘obscure and edge-case’. Ubuntu (actually Kubuntu, I like KDE) was literally the only distro to 1) boot, 2) install, and 3) have working WWAN (after fucking with the fcc-unlock shit and filling my carrier details). Nothing, literally nothing else could do this simple task.

      Linux is great, they say. It’s easy. It’s simple to install and use. It puts you in control. These are ideas that the Linux community wants to believe, that I want to believe, but it’s just not. Given the right circumstances, with the right hardware, and the right use-case, it’s good. Stray anywhere off the beaten path and unless you’re a veteran *nix sysadmin who values their time as $0, sometimes you’re just fucked. I would know, I’ve been using various distros on and off for 20 years. It’s still bad. I don’t understand how, but here we are.

      I don’t like Ubuntu for a few reasons, but in my experience, the situation sucks the least when you use it. Sometimes - see above WWAN bullshit - it’s the only thing that works.

      And that’s fucking bullshit, but it’s a fact. And even interested users, who like to tinker, have a limit to what they will put up with before throwing in the towel and using what works.

    • backgroundcow@lemmy.world
      2·
      6 days ago

      Ubuntu user here. Swapped away from Debian in its early days when Ubuntu made a real effort to stay current with the desktop environment (even coordinating their releases after GNOME), and back then it mattered. Nowadays my few attempts at other distros suggest that the hardware driver situation (especially proprietary) seems better on Ubuntu, for example to get everything working on fairly new laptops.

      There are of course other things I’m less happy about. The snap installs via apt drives me crazy; not that I necessarily hate the technology, but sometimes I need a non-containeraized browser (for example to run inside another container), so I need to be allowed to choose what is being installed.

    • pH3ra@lemmy.ml
      14·
      7 days ago

      Because you don’t have to know what to do already if you start with Ubuntu. You have to know your way around the Linux world more if you use Debian

  • Flax@feddit.ukEnglish
    8·
    7 days ago

    Mfw I switch from windows to Ubuntu and I start seeing bad stuff about it

    • agelord@lemmy.world
      2·
      6 days ago

      It is indeed a good distro and one of the main distros that brings innovation to the Linux world. If it works for you, then keep using it.

    • tsugu@slrpnk.netOP
      57·
      6 days ago

      It’s sad because it’s a genuinely good distro. Linux wouldn’t be anywhere without it yet all I hear is people parroting the same misinformation they heard.

      • prettybunnys@sh.itjust.works
        2·
        6 days ago

        Linux wouldn’t be anywhere without is an incredibly shortsighted statement given that redhat has been the defacto standard in the enterprise and for (US) govt purposes

        • tsugu@slrpnk.netOPEnglish
          1·
          6 days ago

          I should’ve worded that better then. Linux wouldn’t be anywhere when it comes to consumer devices like laptops and desktops. It’s possible that without Canonical someone else would’ve made a just works distro for regular people, but they were the first. As far as I know that is. I haven’t used Linux around 2004.

  • kekmacska@lemmy.zipEnglish
    167·
    7 days ago

    it uses snap (less packages and security than flatpak), app.armor (less secure than Selinux), has a history of anti-privacy integrations (like sending user keystrokes to amazon), still collects some user data. Tumbleweed is better. Great kde implementation, strong security, a lot of cutting-edge software, stability, beginner-friendly

    • agelord@lemmy.world
      8·
      6 days ago

      sending user keystrokes to Amazon

      That’s a very serious allegation to make without citing any source.

      Still collects some user data

      Someone has already pointed out, no data is collected unless the user opts in. But, my question is what’s wrong with collecting anonyomized telemetry about most used hardware and most used/unused software features? It helps developers make better decisions.

      • kekmacska@lemmy.zipEnglish
        1·
        5 days ago

        when i want to aid development with writing down my hardware, i should be able to send them, not they should collect it from me.

        • agelord@lemmy.world
          1·
          5 days ago

          Most distros let you either opt-in or opt-out of it though. It’s really not as big of a deal as people make it out to be. Besides, the “general” population switching to Linux doesn’t really care about anonymized telemetry.

          Discouraging people to not use a certain distro due to its optional and anonymized telemetry, is foolish.

          • kekmacska@lemmy.zipEnglish
            1·
            5 days ago

            idk but i’d switch to linux for absolutely zero telemetry, or as little as physically possible, while still maintaining a good gaming experience. That’s the reason i’m planning to buy an amd build, not nvidia, i don’t want propertiary drivers even

    • tsugu@slrpnk.netOP
      183·
      6 days ago

      False (except for less packages, that’s true), false, the amazon incident was a honest mistake and only applied to the search bar in unity (even more specifically the amazon lense), and no data is being collected unless you enable it during the install. https://youtu.be/rdPt8WB1lZw

      Also are you serious? A rolling release distro with automated package builds being more secure? Last time I checked Tumbleweed got affected by the XZ exploit.

    • tsugu@slrpnk.netOP
      66·
      6 days ago

      By doing what exactly? Snap’s server being proprietary doesn’t affect anyone at all, what else?

      • AVincentInSpace@pawb.socialEnglish
        21·
        4 days ago

        If apt-get detects that a package you told it to install is also available as a snap it’ll silently install that instead and you have to edit the Linux equivalent of the registry to get it to not do that

        • tsugu@slrpnk.netOP
          3·
          4 days ago

          Not entirely true. I experienced it with curl. Snap of it exists and it mostly works. But apt install curl will install regular curl. From what I’ve seen on my Ubuntu it installs a snap only if the apt package is set to install a snap. Such as Firefox. It doesn’t exist in Ubuntu’s repo anymore, only as a metapackage.

    • udon@lemmy.world
      3·
      7 days ago

      may I introduce you to ubuntu pro spamming your apt-get these days? You’re welcome

  • drosophila@lemmy.blahaj.zone
    335·
    7 days ago

    I learned better in 2012 when they tried to put an Amazon search bar in their start menu, the same thing people are complaining about with windows today.

    If I wanted to use corposhit I would have stayed with windows.

    • tsugu@slrpnk.netOP
      2·
      5 days ago

      Lmao. As if corporate operating systems were bad. What makes RedHat that much better tho? I want to know. From what I’ve seen they are both bringing a lot of value to the FOSS space.

      • Delilah (She/Her)@lemmy.blahaj.zoneEnglish
        31·
        5 days ago
        • Fedora makes very minimal changes to downstream. The gnome experience on fedora is the experience the devs intended, for better or worse.
        • It often experiments with new technologies. It was the first to ship pulseaudio out of box. And then again for pipewire. And if it wasn’t the first to install wayland by default, it probably was the first to stop shipping XOrg out of box.
        • It doesn’t install snaps instead of native packages when you run rpm install
        • It’s also Linus Torvald’s distro of choice if that’s worth anything
        • tsugu@slrpnk.netOP
          21·
          5 days ago

          • In my humble opinion, the stock experience on Gnome sucks. No desktop icons, no dock, no minimize maximize buttons, no app indicators. I only use Gnome because of the changes Ubuntu made to it, which can be replicated on other distros with a script.

          • That’s valid. Ubuntu has shipped with wayland by default since some time ago but wasn’t the first one. They don’t seem to adopt the latest technology as fast. Which I like. Even the new LTS still gives you the option to use X.org in GDM.

          • Also true. If you don’t like Snaps and aren’t comfortable with more and more packages being replaced by them, Ubuntu isn’t the distro to use. I don’t mind the metapackages installing snaps instead at all honestly. The terminal clearly says it’s installing a snap. And from my experience they work great. I was recently using wsl and needed yt-dlp. I went for the snap right away and it worked great.

          In fact the only broken snaps I have encountered so far are OBS and curl (which can’t access root directories, making it useless for the script I needed)